Why not run clean synthetic ALL the time?

[Rexman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Al:

When do you determine that the oil is "clean" or "not clean"
Visually the darkness you see may be mild oxidation, mild soot and other things that may only have a micron size less than 1 micron. On the other hand you might us your "visual test" on another engine with very tight rings where tha oil may be wonderfully clean and yet has 100 ppm of lead and iron floating around (with particle sizes of 10 microns. )

So how did your "visual test work"

The visual test is about as useful the Jiffy Lube concept of changing oil every 3K .

I'll give you another example. My 01 Sentra keeps clean oil forever it just doesn't get dirty. Due to warranty considerations and "feel good" stuff-I'll change it around 6K miles.

My son's Cavalier will go over 11K miles. Oil is very dirty.

Shaeffer's 5W-30 Pure syn on both cars:
Cavalier(11100 miles)lead-7, Iron-13(Dirty oil)
Sentra (6700 miles)lead-11, Iron-29 (clean oil)
These are real life numbers. What say you??

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Ok, let me get this straight:

The dirty-looking oil with 11K mi. on it is showing only half the wear particles as the clean-looking 6K mi. oil? Sounds to me like you need to find another lab to do your testing!

(Sorry, couldn't resist

)

To me, "clean" oil is synthetic with around 3000 miles or less on it, and looks clean on the dipstick. For dino, I'd only go 2000 miles and looking clean.

When you take an oil out to 10-12K, you run into the situation like 3MP's well-intended long life study where you've done quite a bit of topping up and this is going to throw the wear figures off quite a bit. Kind of like giving the oil a "face-lift" to make it look better.

With a by-pass filter, you've got the same situation--changing the filters and putting in so many replacement quarts, what you are really doing is a succession of oil changes only in slow motion.

I'm not saying you aren't getting engine protection in these kind of extended drains, just that you would have a better situation as far as suspended wear particles go by getting them out of the engine every 3K or so, and keeping the oil always brand new (so to speak).

[ August 22, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Rexman ]

 

[Rexman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:

We can also look at the data on 3MP's test to see how it goes. For example, let's look at his 3k, 6k and 9k data:


code:
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3k 6k 9k
Iron 14 26 38
Lead 4 11 16
Alum 4 6 7
Copper 81 105 124
Chrom 1 2 2
Tin 4 4 4

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In this case, we can see that most of the wear metals did not double and triple at 6k and 9k, other than lead. So that could be a concern there, but if others have similar data where they have a UOA at 3k and 6k on the same batch of oil, please post them here.

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Ok, what are we to infer from these UOA figures?--that *less* wear actually took place in the engine for iron, aluminum, and copper between 3k and 6k than it did with brand new oil from 0k to 3K? That the *used oil* with over 3K miles on it is providing BETTER wear protection in this case than brand new oil would?

Also, the UOA is only telling us what wear particles are in suspension in the oil, not how many particles might be left behind, lurking or stuck somewhere in the engine when you drain out the oil. That is, what we don't know is the *cleaning effectiveness* of any particular oil.

I'm as much an admirer of what 3MP is trying to accomplish with his long term study as anyone else (certainly no oil company is ever going to publish data like his!) All I'm conveying is my suspicion that the UOA is not telling us everything of what's really going on. It's a good tool in many respects but it can't give us an X-ray of what's actually happening inside the engine.
That's why I say get the oil out of there *before* it has a chance to do any mischief!

[ August 22, 2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Rexman ]

 

[Al]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rexman:
[QUOTE The dirty-looking oil with 11K mi. on it is showing only half the wear particles as the clean-looking 6K mi. oil? Sounds to me like you need to find another lab to do your testing!

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Got ya covered Each car has had one previous oil analysis by another company with similar results (Companies are Schaeffers and Oil Analysts Inc) They are posted on this site somewhere

It was very hard at first to leave oil in that looks "dirty". But with 7 cars to take care of and many observations of wear (many from this site)- I am very comfortable with crawling under the car evert 6 months to a year instead of 3 months. At 57 life is way to short to spend on a thing (car) that to me is a pretty insignificant thing

 

[Rexman]

Yikes!! SEVEN CARS!?

You must have a double-decker garage and one of those automatic lifts they use in the downtown car lots!

And here always thought I was tearing my hair out just keeping track of the two!

 

[Al]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rexman:
Yikes!! SEVEN CARS!?

You must have a double-decker garage and one of those automatic lifts they use in the downtown car lots!

And here always thought I was tearing my hair out just keeping track of the two!

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Naaa they are not all mine-nor are they at home. 4 are extended families and one is Mom's

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by greencrew:

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
One of the tests I plan to do next summer is take a sample of my oil at 3k, and then continue to run the same batch out to 6k, then compare the numbers. ------SNIP---- I bet I'll find the 6k numbers are just as good (in ppm/1000mi) as the 3k numbers.

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That's it, right there, the number one question on my mind that I have not found the answer for. You just stated it a little differently than I did. I am expecting the 3k numbers to be less than half of the 6k numbers because I agree with what Rexman said about wear metals contributing to more wear metals.

Either way, I would hate to take a vacation and miss the results of that thread.

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First things first, these numbers are not so-called linear when they go up, it usually is a big jump,
and with make-up oil and filter-oil tends to keep them more at bay, if there are no other problems.

I'm gonna be replacing my bypass as soon as I get the rest of the things on my truck fixed.

IMHO: I believe one of the 1st. thing to watch is SI, because the higher it goes the more wear, like copper...

Every time I have seen SI move there are always other wear metals rising. Wish I had some other
results when It was good, but I don't. It always seems that when SI stays low, the others move slower (SO KEEP YOUR FILTERS CLEAN) _ I'm switching back to Factory...Did in fact today!

Let me save you a little time here...
I'll put my numbers the last 50K or so and we'll see. Keep in mind that I have been having a lot of problems since my truck hit 300-K; Valve cover leaks, a oil-bypass hose leak, pan leak, etc...
and ALL these numbers are higher than before, in fact before the leaks and such they looked like these numbers (better) at 20-30K.

Miles 322104:326826:330518:334464:337997:340326
Oil 5852 10476 14266 18212 21745 24074
Filter 5852 2280 5972 3946 7479 1466
date 09/22/02 10/19 11/20 12/06 12/28 01/13/03
Silicon 23 41 37 40 40 45
Pot 12 15 15 19 19 0.0
Sod 4.7 7.9 5.8 5.2 5.2 1.5
Iron 9.5 21 15 24 18 16
Nickel 0.0 0.0 0.3 1.0 0.1 0.4
Chromium 0.0 0.7 0.3 0.4 0.4 0.4
Tit 0.0 0.5 0.3 13 0.0 0.3
Copper 6.4 8.9 9.3 6.1 8.9 9.3
Aluminum 2.6 5.8 4.5 0.0 4.6 5.3
Tin 2.3 2.2 0.0 5.7 3.6 0.0
Lead 2.4 0.0 2.6 14 12 14
Silver 0.2 2.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
------------
Miles 348516:351565:354540:358800:370464
Oil 2399 5200 8175 12240 8264
Filter 2399 1500 3860 2800 2156
date 03/02/03 03/20 04/07 05/01
Silicon 15 25 19 19
Pot 0.0 9.5 0.0 0.0
Sod 1.5 2.5 2.3 3.6
Iron 7.0 9.8 9.1 34
Nickel 0.0 0.4 0.4 0.6
Chromium 0.2 0.3 0.2 0.3
Tit 0.1 0.2 0.2 0.1
Copper 2.7 5.0 5.3 3.9
Aluminum 5.2 6.5 5.1 11
Tin 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
Lead 4.5 5.1 6.1 2.6
Silver 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
----------
Time on Old Truck 370464
Time on Oil 8264
Time on the filter2156
SI * 59 *
Pot 0.0
Sod 5.2
Iron 15
Nickel 0.5
Chromium 0.5
Tit 0.1
Copper 8.0
Alum 19
Tin 0.0
Lead 5.4
Silver 0.0
-------
Again SI I think speeds this up.
I've seen this in NEW engines and old,
Everytime SI goes up, watch-out!

FYO: SI does not have to be from the AIR Filter, it will show-up from a hose, valve cover, pan and rearMainSeal like above when it was @ 300K which
started, I then left the By-pass off, and fixed one at a time, the Rear Seal is still leaking from about 335-345?? donno cause of all the other stuff. But I can tell you this When a SEAL leaks, these numbers shoot through the roof, so if you can, ANYTIME you have a leak of any kind whatsoever, you are creating wear, and lots of it.

This is my opinion after seeing this on several automobiles and lots of miles.

It Is MY Opinion that the wear rates can speed up over 5 FOLD perhaps 7 or 8+ fold when there are leaks. ----BEWARE !----

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by greencrew:

quote:

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Originally posted by JonS:
Just change the filter often and top it off. The new filter should clean up the oi along with the new oil upon topoff.

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Would that work? Wouldn't you still leave behind most of the particles smaller than 25 microns which would add up over time?

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From what I have seen in my cars
I'd say that you leave behind say 1/4 of them with a factory filter,
With a by-pass, youre still leaving them behind, but if you change a filter, then change it say 1/2 way before it is called for, the numbers seem to drop quite a bit.

IMO if you change the next two oil changes a little sooner (about 1/2 to 2/3) or you flush
and change soon (at say 3/4) then the numbers seem to me to go to normal.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rexman:

Originally posted by Al:

-------SNIP-o--------
I'm not saying you aren't getting engine protection in these kind of extended drains, just that you would have a better situation as far as suspended wear particles go by getting them out of the engine every 3K or so, and keeping the oil always brand new (so to speak).

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What would you \\ give as your BASEline?

HOW many PPM of What metal does it take to cause
wear that is acceptable?

What makes a count acceptable?

What % loss of engine life per oil change is acceptable to You?

What yould you give as your MAX-contamination level?

Would an engine ever show wear counts if it was changed every 1K?
-----------------------------------------------
And If an engine never showed any wear counts, does that mean it's not wearing? NO!
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I would like for there to be a good answer to
the above questions but IMO I think that to SOME
extent they are subjective... it all depends on your situation and pocketbook.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by GROUCHO MARX:
userfriendly, et al.

I'm sorry, that's a story I remember lifting from another board many moons ago.

The truth is, you would be hard pressed to find 40 dollar parking at most times in NYC and service stations are even rarer on the isle of Manhattan.

At the North end of Manhattan at 215th street, there is a $13.95 oil change with a free car wash included.

Below 125th street, gas stations are few and far between, mostly exist on the edges of the Hudson and East rivers where the Taxis can gas up.

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Man, I'd take advantage of this... could you not
just drop it off every day for an oil change and
tell the owner that you'll be by after work. Talk about KILLING two Birds with one stone.
:-]

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

quote:

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Originally posted by GROUCHO MARX:
I work in NYC. It costs about 40 bucks a day to park the car. I just pull into a service station in the morning and ask them to change the oil(35 bucks). I pick up the car after work with fresh oil and filter every day at no extra cost!

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What a great idea! Not only do you get a more convienent parking spot, but it's the best way I've ever heard to FINALLY keep sludge from building up on those problem-child V6 sludge motors!

(And Toyota will probably still try to blame you for not following their maintenance schedule and then try to deny the sludge claim!)

One question, for $35, is that Mobil1 or just dino?

 

[Rexman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Robbie Alexander:

It Is MY Opinion that the wear rates can speed up over 5 FOLD perhaps 7 or 8+ fold when there are leaks. ----BEWARE !----

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Good point--this is something that is easy for us to lose sight of. It's not just the oil, but how well you take care of the *entire* engine that will determine the miles you get out of it.

[ August 24, 2003, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Rexman ]

 

[Rexman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Robbie Alexander:
Would an engine ever show wear counts if it was changed every 1K?
And If an engine never showed any wear counts, does that mean it's not wearing? NO!
------------------------------------------------
I would like for there to be a good answer to
the above questions but IMO I think that to SOME
extent they are subjective... it all depends on your situation and pocketbook.

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Well, as Patman said, there is a point of diminishing returns on this, and I'd agree--you're not going to get 1/2 as much wear changing it at 1500 as you would 3000, so there'd be no point in changing it at 1000 either. Sure would have one heck of a clean engine though!

But I do think you'll see a wear benefit changing it at 3000 as opposed to 6000, even using synthetic. No proof yet --it's really a gut feeling--why have used oil in there from 3k to 6k when you could have fresh oil? The stuff really isn't that expensive when you figure the cost of a tank of gas these days.

Another way to look at it: a cigar maker will tell you that you can smoke the whole cigar and it won't hurt you. But we all know the second half of that cigar is going to give you a whole different smoking experience than the first half.

Why not just smoke the first half, throw it away and light up another? You'd feel a whole lot better that way.