Why no 0W/30?

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There do not seem to be any offerings in 0W/30? Why? I understand that many vehicles are going to 20 weight. I like the 30 weight for my vehicle due to a consumption issue but also would like the benefit of an 0W oil for winter. They are saying it's going to be a duzzie!
 
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No offerings? Mobil 1 AFE Castrol Edge Liqui Moly Motul 8100 Penrite HPR Lucas Redline Amsoil Brad Penn All those guys have 0w30 available, but lets get real, not a lot of manufactures specify 0w30, if they do specify a 30 grade its usually 5w30, so the 0w30 market is a niche. If you really want a good 0w30, the Mobil 1 and Castrol should be available everywhere, like Walmart. If you want to blend your own custom top of the line 0w30, mix up some TGMO 0w20 with some M1 0w40 euro formula in the ratio that you see fit. You can do 40/60 , 50/50 or 60/40 , depending on what you need.
 

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Yeah Mobil 1 0w30 is at Wamart. Although somebody on here said it wasn't a very stout oil (I could be totally wrong here) but I'd probably do as 901Memphis said and mix 0w20 & 0w40.
 
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Not really sure how useful a 0w30 is....0w20 has taken off, and I just do not see for the 30 weight after 5w30 starts to fade away....heck, even GM is throwing 0w20 in cars and trucks now.. If I was going going to do a 0w for mine, I'd just get to 0w20...much easier to find, and will do just fine in my cars anyways....
 
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Sometimes it is hard to find, or sold out on shelves. (50's commercial voice--->) That's why I use Amsoil - it comes right to my door! And I've heard the same about the upper MidWest...supposed to be a rough winter - we will see!
 
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The reason there are few 0W-30s and the few that are available are specialty oils is because no vehicles sold in NA specify the grade. (It's spec'd in Europe but not here in NA.) The move to improve fuel economy started withe 5W-30 grade and then the 5W-20 grade. It was the Japanese OEMs, primarily Toyota and Honda that had already been using the dino 5W-20 for quite a few years that started researching a better motor oil for the unique lubrication demands of their hybrid cars. That's how the high VI synthetic 0W-20 grade got developed initially just for hybrid engines. But it wasn't long before this new oil was being specified to replace the 5W-20 grade of other models and eventually the few remaining 5W-30 applications. Soon more manufacturers started specifying the 0W-20 grade. It should be noted the move to the 0W-20 grade has little to do with extreme cold temp' performance but rather the higher VI of the grade which enables the oil to be lighter on start-up at more typical start-up temp's. The cheap move to the 5W-20 grade (same as the 5W-30 grade but with less VIIs) side stepped the OEM development of a fuel efficient synthetic 0W-30 grade. So we will not be seeing anymore 0W-30 brands unless BMW or Mercedes start to import their light A5/B5 0W-30s from Europe.
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
It should be noted the move to the 0W-20 grade has little to do with extreme cold temp' performance but rather the higher VI of the grade which enables the oil to be lighter on start-up at more typical start-up temp's.
Seems pretty silly for those manufacturers to chase a CCS/MRV spec to get the 0W, when all you are really intending to get is a low KV40 figure...after all, as Mobil have demonstrated they can have a thinner KV40 and a higher VII with their 5W30 than the AFE...Honda/Toyota could have done the same if they weren't worried about the 0W part. But I'm interested in the data that you have to back your assertion.
 
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As 901Memphis said, it's not specified much by auto manufacturers, and most consumers are afraid of changing the spec to the lighter side (even if it is only the Winter spec and only beneficial). Low demand means little or no shelf space, so the problem becomes self-perpetuating. Mobil tries to deal with it by putting "warranty protection for 5w-30 & 10w-30 requirements" which I found comforting when I tried it.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
It should be noted the move to the 0W-20 grade has little to do with extreme cold temp' performance but rather the higher VI of the grade which enables the oil to be lighter on start-up at more typical start-up temp's.
Seems pretty silly for those manufacturers to chase a CCS/MRV spec to get the 0W, when all you are really intending to get is a low KV40 figure...after all, as Mobil have demonstrated they can have a thinner KV40 and a higher VII with their 5W30 than the AFE...Honda/Toyota could have done the same if they weren't worried about the 0W part. But I'm interested in the data that you have to back your assertion.
It's self-evident. The OEMs have expressed no interest that I've seen in low MRV/CCS spec's. The motivation is to be as light as possible at much warmer start-up temp's in the -10C to 30C range and that means formulating an oil with a very high VI and low HTHSV. In the process of doing so, since you are using very light high VI base stocks the resulting oil will fall into the 0W range. So you're mistaken, you can't make a 220 VI 5W-20. Case in point. When Mobil took over the formulation of the TGMO 0W-20 from Nippon Oil in NA, Toyota wasn't interested in Mobil's AFE 0W-20 with it's very low MRV and 2.7cP HTHSV but had them formulate a copy of the Nippon Oil with it's much less impressive MRV but very high VI and lower HTHSV and of course it's much lower KV40 of 37cSt vs 45.8cSt for M1. Another example. Mobil obviously didn't designed their 0W-30 and 0W-50 race oils to be able to pump at -40 degrees. The 0W rating is just a result of using light high VI base oils to get a high VI finished oil which is what they want. But where you're partly right, is how the OEMs that specify the 0W-20 grade don't require that consumers use their high VI brand. In specifying any API 0W-20 the base oils used may not be as light as what the OEMs use but they will be lighter than what are used to make a 5W-20 and therefore will be lighter at all start-up temp's as their lower KV40 spec's indicate.
 

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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Case in point. When Mobil took over the formulation of the TGMO 0W-20 from Nippon Oil in NA, Toyota wasn't interested in Mobil's AFE 0W-20 with it's very low MRV and 2.7cP HTHSV but had them formulate a copy of the Nippon Oil with it's much less impressive MRV but very high VI and lower HTHSV and of course it's much lower KV40 of 37cSt vs 45.8cSt for M1.
I think that's a fair bit of creative deduction combined perhaps with a bit of hyperbole, given that we weren't there to see how that whole situation "went down", nor do we have any access to the data or first hand accounts of it. It is quite likely that Toyota, working with Nippon oil, developed a product that met whatever criteria Toyota was trying to hit on at the time and when sourcing production in North America, just had Mobil replicate it. This prevented them from having to do whatever in-house testing they'd already done over again with another product that was not similar in composition (assuming the AFE product, we know the base oil blends are completely different for example). TGMO is also likely cheaper to manufacturer given its G3 base vs the 30+% PAO that the AFE product is made from. I somehow doubt some exec at Toyota looked at Mobil's extensive product portfolio, saw the AFE 0w-20 and balked at the VI saying "well, that simply will not do! The VI is much too low for the standards of our VI connoisseurs in the North American market. Stratospheric? Not the VI on this product good sirs! You can take to reproducing our Nippon product, STAT! And move hastily now, or we'll be giving the job to SOPUS! Just like you lost the contract for Chrysler! You would rue the day you failed to meet the VI standards of Toyota! RUE I TELL YOU!!!"
 
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The bottom line is that AFE is way heavier than the Nippon oil developed TGMO 0W-20. And Nippon Oil makes a big deal about the development of their own high VI oil brands. A light high VI oil is what Toyota obviously wanted. But not only Toyota, Idemitsu also formulates very high VI 0W-20 oils for Honda, Mazda and others. And Castrol also has worked with Honda to make their 220 VI 0W-20 for the European market.
 

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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The bottom line is that AFE is way heavier than the Nippon oil developed TGMO 0W-20. And Nippon Oil makes a big deal about the development of their own high VI oil brands. A light high VI oil is what Toyota obviously wanted.
That was sort of my point. AFE 0w-20 doesn't align with what Toyota had developed and I doubt they even looked at it. They had already invested heavily in the extensive testing and development of TGMO and simply wanted Mobil to reproduce it.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
But not only Toyota, Idemitsu also formulates very high VI 0W-20 oils for Honda, Mazda and others. And Castrol also has worked with Honda to make their 220 VI 0W-20 for the European market.
Yes, it seems to be a Japanese manufacturer thing at this point (the OEM high VI oils). None of the major oil manufacturers or blenders (aside from ENEOS, but they are Japanese) make a product that fits that niche, they are all "made for" products, like TGMO. It will be interesting to see if any of the other OEM's go that route in the near future.
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The reason there are few 0W-30s and the few that are available are specialty oils is because no vehicles sold in NA specify the grade. (It's spec'd in Europe but not here in NA.) ...
Yeah, but, almost every GM manual mentions using a synthetic 0W-30 or 5W-30 in cold winter weather...
 
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Guess that we are not going to get any more facts and data
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Another example. Mobil obviously didn't designed their 0W-30 and 0W-50 race oils to be able to pump at -40 degrees. The 0W rating is just a result of using light high VI base oils to get a high VI finished oil which is what they want.
I'm not sure what Mobil were doing when they designed the 0W50...looks more like an oil for bragging rights on the VI than a proper race oil. Seriously, a "50" with an HTHS of 3.8, which is really entry level 40 grade HTHS,and attainable with some schmick 30s. Looks like they have purposely designed in temporary shear to get the VI unicorn effect, with nothing to back it. From here
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
No at the top of my list are a low KV40 value for it's HTHSV, a high AW additive level and reasonable shear stability.
M1 racing 0W50 HTHS 3.8 KV40 100cst. M1 0W40 HTHS 3.8 KV40 75 cst Mobil X3000 5W40 HTHS 3.7 (as you've previously noted, 3.7 COULD be 3.7499999999, versus 3.8 of 3.75) KV40 83cst. Making a unicorn 40 weight that is really a mediocre 40 weight is a strange target.
 
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