Why is roadforce balacing necessary?
- Thread starter grampi
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Lower profile tires. Less sidewall makes the tire harder to balance as there is less room for error as the short sidewall transmits the least little variation/vibration.
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I would forget it for regular rims/tires. Just get it for the low profile tires (which I avoid).
I never heard of it till I read about it here. I don't think any shops here do it.
Originally Posted by grampi
In the old days, regular ol' balancing was always good enough. What has changed with tires that now makes roadforce balancing a necessity?
Actually it's not a necessity unless you have problems that regular balancing cannot solve. RoadForce gives you an additional tool toward the solution
In the old days, regular ol' balancing was always good enough. What has changed with tires that now makes roadforce balancing a necessity?
Actually it's not a necessity unless you have problems that regular balancing cannot solve. RoadForce gives you an additional tool toward the solution
I started with the latest set of tires on the truck. Night and day difference.
Originally Posted by cpayne5
Road force balancing seeks to remove vibrations not caused by weight imbalance. Essentially, vibrations that only exist when a tire/wheel are under load.
Actually the road force part of it is checking for road force/run-out. As far as the balance part of it, it works the same way as any other balancer out there. Road force is not factored into the actual balance. It is a separate check, so just because a shop has a road force balancer they can skip that step if they choose, and it takes less time.
Road force balancing seeks to remove vibrations not caused by weight imbalance. Essentially, vibrations that only exist when a tire/wheel are under load.
Actually the road force part of it is checking for road force/run-out. As far as the balance part of it, it works the same way as any other balancer out there. Road force is not factored into the actual balance. It is a separate check, so just because a shop has a road force balancer they can skip that step if they choose, and it takes less time.
It's another diagnostic tool for the shop to solve problems. Not all wheels and tires have problems so you can either wait to have issues and see if RF balancing helps. Or, you can spring for it off the bat and rest assured it was done(operator error aside). The shop will charge you more if you wait, I would expect.
One reason as mentioned is low profile tires, the other is cheap tires have more issues than top tier manufacturers. Keep in mind that if you have nearly perfect rims (<0.005" average runout), there isn't much room for correction.
One reason as mentioned is low profile tires, the other is cheap tires have more issues than top tier manufacturers. Keep in mind that if you have nearly perfect rims (<0.005" average runout), there isn't much room for correction.
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I wouldn't say it's necessary unless a conventional balance job isn't taking care of a stubborn wheel/tire vibration.
Like Chris said above, I never heard of it until it was mentioned here. Per the Hunter website, I do have a local shop that supposedly has one!
Like Chris said above, I never heard of it until it was mentioned here. Per the Hunter website, I do have a local shop that supposedly has one!
Originally Posted by Traction
It is a separate check, so just because a shop has a road force balancer they can skip that step if they choose, and it takes less time.
I asked the local Discount Tire about a road force balance and they do offer them but as far as I know, only when the customer requests it. They use their regular balancing equipment as their standard procedure.
I do presume that they could resort to this road force option when they're not able to get a wheel/tire balanced with their regular equipment, yes ? Even then, I'd bet the first option is "grab another tire" unless they don't have anymore of the specific one they're working with.
It is a separate check, so just because a shop has a road force balancer they can skip that step if they choose, and it takes less time.
I asked the local Discount Tire about a road force balance and they do offer them but as far as I know, only when the customer requests it. They use their regular balancing equipment as their standard procedure.
I do presume that they could resort to this road force option when they're not able to get a wheel/tire balanced with their regular equipment, yes ? Even then, I'd bet the first option is "grab another tire" unless they don't have anymore of the specific one they're working with.
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Place I bought my recent set of Continental TruContact's (Forester in sig) had Road Force as standard balancing on all their jobs. They told me it reduces come-backs and thus saves shop time in the long run since come-backs for balance complaints are on their dime. Supposedly Road Force seeks to match up the best compromise of run out between the tire and the rim since all tires and all rims are very minutely out of perfect round.
Tire Rack does it as their standard install, and for $15/tire to mount and balance, I've never complained about getting it done. Not really sure if it's largely different than normal, but I can't say I've noticed any downsides.
We used to have the Hunter Roadforce machine at the dealer, the only time we used it was with problem tires. Most of the time it was a shifted belt that would cause a random vibration, and would never show up in the normal balance. It was also especially common on 535i and 535xi with Goodyear Eagle runflats, and only on one style of wheel. Really odd, this was back in 2007 though.
Originally Posted by Traction
Originally Posted by cpayne5
Road force balancing seeks to remove vibrations not caused by weight imbalance. Essentially, vibrations that only exist when a tire/wheel are under load.
Actually the road force part of it is checking for road force/run-out. As far as the balance part of it, it works the same way as any other balancer out there. Road force is not factored into the actual balance. It is a separate check, so just because a shop has a road force balancer they can skip that step if they choose, and it takes less time.
Yeah, what you said supports my statement...
Originally Posted by cpayne5
Road force balancing seeks to remove vibrations not caused by weight imbalance. Essentially, vibrations that only exist when a tire/wheel are under load.
Actually the road force part of it is checking for road force/run-out. As far as the balance part of it, it works the same way as any other balancer out there. Road force is not factored into the actual balance. It is a separate check, so just because a shop has a road force balancer they can skip that step if they choose, and it takes less time.
Yeah, what you said supports my statement...
Modern cars are generally much more sensitive to any imbalance. Stiffer body structures, mounts, lower profile tires that don't mask any uniformity issues as easily as a soft, tall sidewall tire, excess run-out, etc, etc.
It's just another tool to optimize the wheel/tire assembly. Of course you also need an operator that is competent to achieve that.
It's just another tool to optimize the wheel/tire assembly. Of course you also need an operator that is competent to achieve that.
Quote
Those of us who know what a Road Force Balancer is, know that there really is no comparison with a standard balancer. For those of you who do not know what a Hunter Road Force balancer is please read on and I will do my best to explain.
A standard balancer is great for balancing steel wheels on larger trucks or the older style of wheels that use clip on weights for both the outer and inner lips. However, the style of wheels is changing and most wheels require the use of stick on weights that are applied to the inner barrel. A standard balancer is not ideal for measuring the exact amount if weight to be applied to the inner barrel of wheel. For starters, every wheel is different because the offsets are different even among different models of the same manufacturer. A BMW 3 series will have wheels with a much different offset than a 5 or 6 series BMW. The difference is that the weights must be applied just behind the spokes and on a standard balancer there is no way to tell the machine exactly where this is.
Standard balancers know the diameter of a wheel, how wide the wheel is, and how far away it sits from the sensor that measures the run out. In a standard balancer all it is doing is looking for the slight variations of out-of-round in the wheels and tire assembly. The weights help to even out a side-to-side wobble (lateral run out) or an up and down wobble (radial run out). What is missing from the measurements is the amount of force the tire can throw off.
When balancing using a Hunter Road Force machine we are able to tell the machine exactly how far the wheel sits from the sensors that are taking the measurements, exactly the distance to just behind the spokes (where we must apply our stick on weights), the width of the wheel, and the diameter. Most importantly, a roller will apply about 1000lbs of pressure to the wheel while it is spinning to replicate what the wheel will act like when the on the road with the weight of a car on it. This roller can measures the amount of weight the tire can throw off while it is spinning. This is known as "road force". Road force is present in new and old tires - sometimes, even more so in new tires which is caused from stiffness, lack of stiffness, or weak spots in the sidewalls of the tires. By reading the run out of the wheel and tire assembly in conjunction with the road force measurement the Hunter Road Force machine will virtually always get a wheel perfectly balanced. While the Hunter Road Force Balancer is taking measurements it looks at both the rim run out and tire run out to see if they are within industry specific tolerances and if the wheel and tire assembly is out of tolerance there are a whole host of other tests to determine if the excessive road force is caused by the rim or the tire. In most cases, rotating the tire to a different position on the wheel, or even using the tire on a different rim can eliminate excessive road force.
What the Hunter Road Force balancer can measure is not possible on a standard balancer.
Those of us who know what a Road Force Balancer is, know that there really is no comparison with a standard balancer. For those of you who do not know what a Hunter Road Force balancer is please read on and I will do my best to explain.
A standard balancer is great for balancing steel wheels on larger trucks or the older style of wheels that use clip on weights for both the outer and inner lips. However, the style of wheels is changing and most wheels require the use of stick on weights that are applied to the inner barrel. A standard balancer is not ideal for measuring the exact amount if weight to be applied to the inner barrel of wheel. For starters, every wheel is different because the offsets are different even among different models of the same manufacturer. A BMW 3 series will have wheels with a much different offset than a 5 or 6 series BMW. The difference is that the weights must be applied just behind the spokes and on a standard balancer there is no way to tell the machine exactly where this is.
Standard balancers know the diameter of a wheel, how wide the wheel is, and how far away it sits from the sensor that measures the run out. In a standard balancer all it is doing is looking for the slight variations of out-of-round in the wheels and tire assembly. The weights help to even out a side-to-side wobble (lateral run out) or an up and down wobble (radial run out). What is missing from the measurements is the amount of force the tire can throw off.
When balancing using a Hunter Road Force machine we are able to tell the machine exactly how far the wheel sits from the sensors that are taking the measurements, exactly the distance to just behind the spokes (where we must apply our stick on weights), the width of the wheel, and the diameter. Most importantly, a roller will apply about 1000lbs of pressure to the wheel while it is spinning to replicate what the wheel will act like when the on the road with the weight of a car on it. This roller can measures the amount of weight the tire can throw off while it is spinning. This is known as "road force". Road force is present in new and old tires - sometimes, even more so in new tires which is caused from stiffness, lack of stiffness, or weak spots in the sidewalls of the tires. By reading the run out of the wheel and tire assembly in conjunction with the road force measurement the Hunter Road Force machine will virtually always get a wheel perfectly balanced. While the Hunter Road Force Balancer is taking measurements it looks at both the rim run out and tire run out to see if they are within industry specific tolerances and if the wheel and tire assembly is out of tolerance there are a whole host of other tests to determine if the excessive road force is caused by the rim or the tire. In most cases, rotating the tire to a different position on the wheel, or even using the tire on a different rim can eliminate excessive road force.
What the Hunter Road Force balancer can measure is not possible on a standard balancer.
Originally Posted by grampi
What has changed with tires that now makes roadforce balancing a necessity?
Who said it's a necessity?
It's another tool in a toolbox to identify problematic tires that balance out perfectly, yet still cause vibrations when put back on the vehicle.
What has changed with tires that now makes roadforce balancing a necessity?
Who said it's a necessity?
It's another tool in a toolbox to identify problematic tires that balance out perfectly, yet still cause vibrations when put back on the vehicle.
I learned of its value in doing motorcycle wheels and more recently the Slingshot, all of which seem to be more sensitive than car tires. After watching how it was done, as described by Vern above, I now have my car tires mounted and balanced with the Road Force. Cost in my area are the same.
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