Why I buy American
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Originally Posted By: opus1
My Dakota was build during the Daimler-Chrysler days, and the build sticker on the doorjamb even says "Daimler", so I like to confuse people by telling them I have a Mercedes pickup.
Ditto for my Wrangler; I've installed Hella E Code headlamps, HD Bilsteins, and MB Quart speakers. I tell people that I'm trying to keep it as German as possible...
My Dakota was build during the Daimler-Chrysler days, and the build sticker on the doorjamb even says "Daimler", so I like to confuse people by telling them I have a Mercedes pickup.
Ditto for my Wrangler; I've installed Hella E Code headlamps, HD Bilsteins, and MB Quart speakers. I tell people that I'm trying to keep it as German as possible...
Originally Posted By: opus1
Anyway, the lines are so blurred now it's ridiculous. Is my made-in-Alabama Sonata more foreign than the Hencho en Mexico HHR that I was also considering at the time I was shopping?
While I would agree the lines have indeed shifted, they certainly are not blurred at all. In fact since the implementation of the AALA the lines are more easily determined than ever before.
To use your specific example between a Sonanta and an HHR, the numbers are very close...that is if you are only willing to consider the labor and parts involved to actually assemble the car.
The Sonata contains 40% US/Canadian labor and parts content.
The HHR contains 37% US/Canadian labor and parts content.
Beyond the labor and parts, which are both accounted for in the NHTSA AALA data. One also should consider the R&D investment costs, the engineering/design investments and the net profits and where they end up. The percentages in this specific case are indeed very close, but after factoring the other investments that the AALA doesn't take into account, the answer to your question becomes pretty clear.
Anyway, the lines are so blurred now it's ridiculous. Is my made-in-Alabama Sonata more foreign than the Hencho en Mexico HHR that I was also considering at the time I was shopping?
While I would agree the lines have indeed shifted, they certainly are not blurred at all. In fact since the implementation of the AALA the lines are more easily determined than ever before.
To use your specific example between a Sonanta and an HHR, the numbers are very close...that is if you are only willing to consider the labor and parts involved to actually assemble the car.
The Sonata contains 40% US/Canadian labor and parts content.
The HHR contains 37% US/Canadian labor and parts content.
Beyond the labor and parts, which are both accounted for in the NHTSA AALA data. One also should consider the R&D investment costs, the engineering/design investments and the net profits and where they end up. The percentages in this specific case are indeed very close, but after factoring the other investments that the AALA doesn't take into account, the answer to your question becomes pretty clear.
People fail to realize that a lot of the new American cars are designed in Europe, but built in America.
So, are they American?
I say no because they we not designed in America.
Three examples: The Ford Fiesta and Focus, the Chevy Cruze and the Grand Cherokee (Mercedes Benz frame and suspension)
So, are they American?
I say no because they we not designed in America.
Three examples: The Ford Fiesta and Focus, the Chevy Cruze and the Grand Cherokee (Mercedes Benz frame and suspension)
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Interesting....So, by your logic a car that was designed in America but built entirely offshore with foreign sourced parts is more "American" than a car designed offshore but built here with US sourced parts and labor?
ONE of the reasons that I buy domestic is that I live in central South Dakota, right where I-90 crosses the Missouri River. The Might Mo runs right in front of my house. If I purchased a foreign car, depending on brand, the nearest dealer is 85-125 miles away.
There are so many things that can make a "check engine light" come on. That's a long way to travel to get a vehicle serviced or diagnosed. As a car salesman, this was a selling point. Talked with a lot of customers who were thinking about a Corolla or Honda. When I mentioned travelling for repairs, they decided to buy American.
There are so many things that can make a "check engine light" come on. That's a long way to travel to get a vehicle serviced or diagnosed. As a car salesman, this was a selling point. Talked with a lot of customers who were thinking about a Corolla or Honda. When I mentioned travelling for repairs, they decided to buy American.
My point is that there is no American rebirth in the automotive industry. For the past 25 years, Ford & GM designed, built and sold great cars in Europe that were just as good, if not better, than the Japanese models, but we never got them in America. We got the junky, American-designed Escorts, Cavaliers, and K-Cars.
Currently, for this great American rebirth, how many cars are strictly designed in America so that we can wave the American flag and say that we took on the world and built a world-class car? The answer is none!
Ford and GM are rightfully so, just building their European models in America. They are not designed in America, just built here.
I am impressed with the Fiesta, Focus, Cruze and Grand Cherokee, but they were not designed by the American side of their companies.
Currently, for this great American rebirth, how many cars are strictly designed in America so that we can wave the American flag and say that we took on the world and built a world-class car? The answer is none!
Ford and GM are rightfully so, just building their European models in America. They are not designed in America, just built here.
I am impressed with the Fiesta, Focus, Cruze and Grand Cherokee, but they were not designed by the American side of their companies.
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Well GM US did some of the development work on the Cruze and GM is still the parent of the foreign operations. I'll tell you what I think the problem is. Look who gets hired at corporations anymore in the US because of PC nonsense and who gets their hand held through engineering colleges? It's not the people with the most ability to design getting the degrees or the jobs as much, but those that fit the quota. On top of that it's not how skilled you are but personality.
The Fiesta, Focus and Cruze are very good cars imo. And for the most part they reflect the companies willingness to utilize resources on a more global scale. I think you and I would agree, this is something they should have been doing for years.
But I would argue as well that the Fusion, the Taurus any RWD Cadillac...and any number of other crossover/small SUV platform vehicles like the Terrain/Nox are indeed world class to use your terminology. In their price range I'd put any of them up against anything from around the globe. The Focus and Fiesta are vast improvements over the Escort of yore, but imo the Taurus and Fusion represent just as big an improvement.
But I would argue as well that the Fusion, the Taurus any RWD Cadillac...and any number of other crossover/small SUV platform vehicles like the Terrain/Nox are indeed world class to use your terminology. In their price range I'd put any of them up against anything from around the globe. The Focus and Fiesta are vast improvements over the Escort of yore, but imo the Taurus and Fusion represent just as big an improvement.
Originally Posted By: kkspeed
I am impressed with the Fiesta, Focus, Cruze and Grand Cherokee, but they were not designed by the American side of their companies.
Maybe not, but possibly they were the result of international teamwork like the Buick LaCrosse:
The LaCrosse was designed and engineered by teams in Shanghai, Detroit and Russelsheim, Germany.
I am impressed with the Fiesta, Focus, Cruze and Grand Cherokee, but they were not designed by the American side of their companies.
Maybe not, but possibly they were the result of international teamwork like the Buick LaCrosse:
The LaCrosse was designed and engineered by teams in Shanghai, Detroit and Russelsheim, Germany.
I always wonder how many "only buy American" folks shop at China-Mart?
I buy used cars, so I doubt it makes a difference. Last purchase was a Saturn - not at all on my radar when first shopping - but I sure do appreciate American depreciation. Half the miles and 5 years newer for the same price as a Japanese make would have been.
I buy used cars, so I doubt it makes a difference. Last purchase was a Saturn - not at all on my radar when first shopping - but I sure do appreciate American depreciation. Half the miles and 5 years newer for the same price as a Japanese make would have been.
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Originally Posted By: surfstar
I always wonder how many "only buy American" folks shop at China-Mart?
I buy used cars, so I doubt it makes a difference. Last purchase was a Saturn - not at all on my radar when first shopping - but I sure do appreciate American depreciation. Half the miles and 5 years newer for the same price as a Japanese make would have been.
As I said earlier (perhaps in another thread in a similar vein), I buy first-world. And I don't shop at Walmart. But like yourself, I only buy used cars as well.
I always wonder how many "only buy American" folks shop at China-Mart?
I buy used cars, so I doubt it makes a difference. Last purchase was a Saturn - not at all on my radar when first shopping - but I sure do appreciate American depreciation. Half the miles and 5 years newer for the same price as a Japanese make would have been.
As I said earlier (perhaps in another thread in a similar vein), I buy first-world. And I don't shop at Walmart. But like yourself, I only buy used cars as well.
Originally Posted By: LTVibe
Originally Posted By: kkspeed
I am impressed with the Fiesta, Focus, Cruze and Grand Cherokee, but they were not designed by the American side of their companies.
Maybe not, but possibly they were the result of international teamwork like the Buick LaCrosse:
The LaCrosse was designed and engineered by teams in Shanghai, Detroit and Russelsheim, Germany.
It used to be that "engineered" or "designed" in the United States was a big reason to buy a domestic brand. Sure, a Toyota or Honda might have been built here, but a good part of their engineering was probably somewhere else, and those engineering white collar jobs are the ones that make a big impact on the economy.
So is that argument any different now that domestic cars are highly globalized, and are indeed partly designed and engineered off-shore?
I'm not saying it is or it isn't...just curious how folks feel about that.
Originally Posted By: kkspeed
I am impressed with the Fiesta, Focus, Cruze and Grand Cherokee, but they were not designed by the American side of their companies.
Maybe not, but possibly they were the result of international teamwork like the Buick LaCrosse:
The LaCrosse was designed and engineered by teams in Shanghai, Detroit and Russelsheim, Germany.
It used to be that "engineered" or "designed" in the United States was a big reason to buy a domestic brand. Sure, a Toyota or Honda might have been built here, but a good part of their engineering was probably somewhere else, and those engineering white collar jobs are the ones that make a big impact on the economy.
So is that argument any different now that domestic cars are highly globalized, and are indeed partly designed and engineered off-shore?
I'm not saying it is or it isn't...just curious how folks feel about that.
I try to buy American whenever I can. As I've read this thread I've realized how much more difficult it is to truly do let alone understand than I thought. The globalization of economies and corporate structures is more and more thorough.
That said, I have to main reasons that I haven't bought American cars in a while. The first is the last American car I bought. It was a 2003 Chevy Trailblazer bought for my wife. It was truly dreadful and shoddily built. We sold it after 4 years and just as the repairs were really amping up. We almost had to give it away the value was so low on it.
The second reason is I haven't seen very many cars out of detroit lately that I really like. Not a fan of the current styling and the mix of equipment and perfomance is not what I wanted. The closest things to wanting out of America right now are both Fords - a new F150 or a V6 Mustang.
That said, I have to main reasons that I haven't bought American cars in a while. The first is the last American car I bought. It was a 2003 Chevy Trailblazer bought for my wife. It was truly dreadful and shoddily built. We sold it after 4 years and just as the repairs were really amping up. We almost had to give it away the value was so low on it.
The second reason is I haven't seen very many cars out of detroit lately that I really like. Not a fan of the current styling and the mix of equipment and perfomance is not what I wanted. The closest things to wanting out of America right now are both Fords - a new F150 or a V6 Mustang.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: LTVibe
Originally Posted By: kkspeed
I am impressed with the Fiesta, Focus, Cruze and Grand Cherokee, but they were not designed by the American side of their companies.
Maybe not, but possibly they were the result of international teamwork like the Buick LaCrosse:
It used to be that "engineered" or "designed" in the United States was a big reason to buy a domestic brand. Sure, a Toyota or Honda might have been built here, but a good part of their engineering was probably somewhere else, and those engineering white collar jobs are the ones that make a big impact on the economy.
So is that argument any different now that domestic cars are highly globalized, and are indeed partly designed and engineered off-shore?
I'm not saying it is or it isn't...just curious how folks feel about that.
From the perspective of the whole picture, I disagree with your premise that "domestic cars are highly globalized", a t least as far as engineering and design are concerned....I would agree that a few of their models clearly are as you describe them, but by a wide margin Ford and GM both have lines that are designed and engineered here. Things in Warren and West Dearborn are very busy lately, they aren't slowing down at all.
Also, it is a valid point to point out that these cars, the Focus and Fiesta in particular are not imported wholesale. What I mean is there is a lot of engineering and design that does get done on a vehicle for each market. Things like styling, interior design differences...heck even the EPA/NHTSA regs and testing processes require a team of engineers to meet. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes to design/engineer a EU model so it can be legally sold in the States.
I think the biggest change is that broad statements about companies in general now hold no water. What it really takes it to delve into each individual model...the lines are still there, they just are harder to find and can often be very different from model to model within a particular manufacturers complete line up.
Originally Posted By: LTVibe
Originally Posted By: kkspeed
I am impressed with the Fiesta, Focus, Cruze and Grand Cherokee, but they were not designed by the American side of their companies.
Maybe not, but possibly they were the result of international teamwork like the Buick LaCrosse:
It used to be that "engineered" or "designed" in the United States was a big reason to buy a domestic brand. Sure, a Toyota or Honda might have been built here, but a good part of their engineering was probably somewhere else, and those engineering white collar jobs are the ones that make a big impact on the economy.
So is that argument any different now that domestic cars are highly globalized, and are indeed partly designed and engineered off-shore?
I'm not saying it is or it isn't...just curious how folks feel about that.
From the perspective of the whole picture, I disagree with your premise that "domestic cars are highly globalized", a t least as far as engineering and design are concerned....I would agree that a few of their models clearly are as you describe them, but by a wide margin Ford and GM both have lines that are designed and engineered here. Things in Warren and West Dearborn are very busy lately, they aren't slowing down at all.
Also, it is a valid point to point out that these cars, the Focus and Fiesta in particular are not imported wholesale. What I mean is there is a lot of engineering and design that does get done on a vehicle for each market. Things like styling, interior design differences...heck even the EPA/NHTSA regs and testing processes require a team of engineers to meet. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes to design/engineer a EU model so it can be legally sold in the States.
I think the biggest change is that broad statements about companies in general now hold no water. What it really takes it to delve into each individual model...the lines are still there, they just are harder to find and can often be very different from model to model within a particular manufacturers complete line up.
I truly do not understand this "buy American" or whatever brand loyalty at all. These companies have no loyalty to us or this country what so ever, as Toyota, Honda and Nissan have proven recently by threatening to leave Japan if their government does nothing to weaken Yen. Big three are no different.
If we want to help in creating jobs and preserving manufacturing jobs, we need to make outsourcing more expansive than production here. This is the only way. Buying from domestic manufacturers will not in any way guarantee they will produce here as long as cheaper alternatives exist.
You want proof of that, go to a grocery store and see how many fruits and vegetables are being imported form China, you can't say people not buying food is the cause of that.
Same goes with electronics, and virtually every other item that was made in NA but is outsourced. Demand was never the cause, pure economic advantage always is. Take that advantage and manufacturing will be brought back.
If we want to help in creating jobs and preserving manufacturing jobs, we need to make outsourcing more expansive than production here. This is the only way. Buying from domestic manufacturers will not in any way guarantee they will produce here as long as cheaper alternatives exist.
You want proof of that, go to a grocery store and see how many fruits and vegetables are being imported form China, you can't say people not buying food is the cause of that.
Same goes with electronics, and virtually every other item that was made in NA but is outsourced. Demand was never the cause, pure economic advantage always is. Take that advantage and manufacturing will be brought back.
Originally Posted By: surfstar
I always wonder how many "only buy American" folks shop at China-Mart?
Believe it or not, some of the items sold at China-Mart ARE actually made, sourced, and screwed together here, by FULLY American owned companies.
Now you may hate/rag on C.M. for very valid reasons other than this anyway, i.e.; them dictating/controlling/setting the price which manufacturers must meet/exceed, the mfg.'s profits and employees be d***ed, and C.M. putting EVERY SINGLE 'mom & pop' operation in this country out of business in a legalized monopoly, etc.
I always wonder how many "only buy American" folks shop at China-Mart?
Believe it or not, some of the items sold at China-Mart ARE actually made, sourced, and screwed together here, by FULLY American owned companies.
Now you may hate/rag on C.M. for very valid reasons other than this anyway, i.e.; them dictating/controlling/setting the price which manufacturers must meet/exceed, the mfg.'s profits and employees be d***ed, and C.M. putting EVERY SINGLE 'mom & pop' operation in this country out of business in a legalized monopoly, etc.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
as Toyota, Honda and Nissan have proven recently by threatening to leave Japan if their government does nothing to weaken the yen.
Hey, if they make OUR country their FULL base/HQs, shift ALL of their manufacturing/engineering/design here, hire U.S. citizens to fill all of these jobs, then I would have to support, praise, and even show some loyalty towards them and completely view them as 'American'.
I would even consider buying an STI, 370Z, or that new Scoobie-engined, RWD coupe from Toy.
But how likely is that to EVER happen???
as Toyota, Honda and Nissan have proven recently by threatening to leave Japan if their government does nothing to weaken the yen.
Hey, if they make OUR country their FULL base/HQs, shift ALL of their manufacturing/engineering/design here, hire U.S. citizens to fill all of these jobs, then I would have to support, praise, and even show some loyalty towards them and completely view them as 'American'.
I would even consider buying an STI, 370Z, or that new Scoobie-engined, RWD coupe from Toy.
But how likely is that to EVER happen???
Buying made in USA hand-tools is very difficult for some special tools. I had been looking for 16" long needle nose pliers, 45 degree bent and straight, and so far I could not find any confirmed pliers made in USA that I can either buy at a local store or online.
Snap-on has 14" pliers made in USA but their 16" pliers are made in China.
There are some products that is nearly impossible to find made in USA now. The alternative is made in first world countries, such as Canada, Western European countries, Australia ...
Snap-on has 14" pliers made in USA but their 16" pliers are made in China.
There are some products that is nearly impossible to find made in USA now. The alternative is made in first world countries, such as Canada, Western European countries, Australia ...
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