The last few years I spent a lot of time in the snow belt. Even just living in NJ I've driven in many snow storms. 2 years ago we had a blizzard of up to 2-3ft of snow. I-95 was closed. I remember driving from Ithaca NY back to S.Jersey. I had the Corolla then and it did fine in the snow. Front wheel drive is clearly better then rear wheel in the snow. The weight is over the front wheels. 4wd is better then both, but your not invinceable like some think they are. Ice is ice and anything will slip on it. AWD is ideal IMO bc you can keep the performance all year round. But the tires you chose is definitely a good point and that is where some of the AWD cars wouldn't be so hot in the snow.
Why don't we see more All Wheel Drive?
- Thread starter buster
- Start date
- Status
Fwd is somewhat better than rwd only when marginal traction conditions present themselves with sub-par tires (aka all-seasons) because steering control and a greater percentage of the car's weight is over the drive wheels.
4wd vehicles are becoming more prominent because this is the new 'luxury' trend. Meaning, what's left after 2wd? But, these are the newer complex systems and not the traditional 4wd/2 diff. systems which very often add unnecessary weight to the vehicle and thereby reduce handling under all conditions (especially low traction ones).
The ultimate limiting factor is traction. That said, a rwd vehicle with 4 snow/winter tires in new condition will often outperform a 4wd vehicle with all-seasons. I've witnessed this with my 2wd BMW...
4wd vehicles are becoming more prominent because this is the new 'luxury' trend. Meaning, what's left after 2wd? But, these are the newer complex systems and not the traditional 4wd/2 diff. systems which very often add unnecessary weight to the vehicle and thereby reduce handling under all conditions (especially low traction ones).
The ultimate limiting factor is traction. That said, a rwd vehicle with 4 snow/winter tires in new condition will often outperform a 4wd vehicle with all-seasons. I've witnessed this with my 2wd BMW...
I have a 1993 Dodge Caravan AWD. In the winter I throw on a set of Blizzaks and the beast can drive through anything. I've even used it to pull out my other cars when they got stuck. But I probably won't buy another AWD vehichle. The purchase cost, decreased fuel economy and increased long term maintenance are not justified.
All the other taxi's in my fleet are now FWD and get Blizzaks in the winter. The only way to get them stuck is to hang them up on a snow bank which is driver error.
Before starting my own business, I worked for another company which used RWD Grand Marquis. After that experience I swore I'd never own RWD again! Those cars were pigs and would get stuck in a wet pile of leaves. And you couldn't even rock the car to get out because the traction control would kick in as soon as the wheels slipped. A 12 hour shift of that left me physically drained. Now with my own FWD cars and proper tires, I just have to worry about the other idiots on the road.
All the other taxi's in my fleet are now FWD and get Blizzaks in the winter. The only way to get them stuck is to hang them up on a snow bank which is driver error.
Before starting my own business, I worked for another company which used RWD Grand Marquis. After that experience I swore I'd never own RWD again! Those cars were pigs and would get stuck in a wet pile of leaves. And you couldn't even rock the car to get out because the traction control would kick in as soon as the wheels slipped. A 12 hour shift of that left me physically drained. Now with my own FWD cars and proper tires, I just have to worry about the other idiots on the road.
Kestas
Staff member
4WD is great for pulling the car out of snow at low speeds.
But I too find it ironic to see a lot of 4WD vehicles either spun off the highway or speeding through the slick mess. What these driver's don't realize is that 4WD has no advantage over 2WD or FWD in one aspect - braking! When it comes to braking, every car has four tires contacting the pavement, and for the most part all cars are equal in that respect.
But I too find it ironic to see a lot of 4WD vehicles either spun off the highway or speeding through the slick mess. What these driver's don't realize is that 4WD has no advantage over 2WD or FWD in one aspect - braking! When it comes to braking, every car has four tires contacting the pavement, and for the most part all cars are equal in that respect.
Dittos. Also in the U.S. about half the country doesn't need AWD anyway...which doesn't explain SUV's in the Sunbelt, but I digress.
If not needed why have it?
The reasons there are AWD cars like Audis and the WRX is the inherent limits of FWD to get a lot of power to the road, hence the performance rather than snow tires. It is expensive and complex, but these companies have engineering and marketing cultures that prevent them from building RWD cars that could handle the power more easily, like BMW and Mercedes.
As far as FWD being better than RWD in snow and ice, that depends. I found a FWD Ford very dangerous because torque steer made it want to veer left into opposing traffic. FWD minivans cannot climb my steep street when icy. Due to weight shift, RWD actually does slightly better.
As far as FWD being better than RWD in snow and ice, that depends. I found a FWD Ford very dangerous because torque steer made it want to veer left into opposing traffic. FWD minivans cannot climb my steep street when icy. Due to weight shift, RWD actually does slightly better.
Lots of AWD cars are on their way, but it's not because they're needed. People think that they need AWD, but most do not.
Think about it this way, AWD only helps you when your foot is on the gas. I've lived in MN all my life, and never once have a I seen a person go in the ditch or crash with their foot on the gas.
-T
Think about it this way, AWD only helps you when your foot is on the gas. I've lived in MN all my life, and never once have a I seen a person go in the ditch or crash with their foot on the gas.
-T
True, it comes down to traction and with bad tires or driving skills, it won't matter what your driving. Slap a good pair of snow tires on an Audi or WRX and I bet that makes a fun winter driving experience.
My grandfather loves the Mercury Grand Marquis and those things suck in the snow, as do all big V8 American RWD cars like Mustangs/Camaros etc. The Corolla I had was very good in the snow. I could get through most storms.
My grandfather loves the Mercury Grand Marquis and those things suck in the snow, as do all big V8 American RWD cars like Mustangs/Camaros etc. The Corolla I had was very good in the snow. I could get through most storms.
my sister has one of those... does your's get absolutely horrible fuel mileage (10-12mpg)? her does and gets worse mileage than my 3/4ton chevy pickup (I get 15mpg city w/ a 350.
-Bret
I drive in a similar winter climate as Sparkman, I'm over near Albany, NY.
The only rear wheel drive vehicle I've used in snow was terrible, Ford conversion van, but it also didn't have winter tires. I've always used front wheel drive, never had a problem. Actually my first car was a 1981 Mercury Lynx, slow as molassas, but an absolute tank. I never got it stuck, and it wasn't for lack of trying.
I've had poor fwd performers, but that was almost always atributable to poor tires, either not enough tread, or too wide.
4WD is good up to about 10 mph, but it won't help you stop!
I agree with the theory of vehicles being purchased to compensate for poor driving skills. Around here, you need to learn fast! The first few real snowfalls, about 80% of the vehicles that you see upside-down or in a ditch on the side of the road (or over the guardrail in the median) are SUV's and 4wd trucks.
FWD with decent all season tires, and a competent driver will be fine for 95% of the driving conditions you encounter in the winter. For the other 5%, just stay home until the plows clear the road.
The only rear wheel drive vehicle I've used in snow was terrible, Ford conversion van, but it also didn't have winter tires. I've always used front wheel drive, never had a problem. Actually my first car was a 1981 Mercury Lynx, slow as molassas, but an absolute tank. I never got it stuck, and it wasn't for lack of trying.
I've had poor fwd performers, but that was almost always atributable to poor tires, either not enough tread, or too wide.
4WD is good up to about 10 mph, but it won't help you stop!
I agree with the theory of vehicles being purchased to compensate for poor driving skills. Around here, you need to learn fast! The first few real snowfalls, about 80% of the vehicles that you see upside-down or in a ditch on the side of the road (or over the guardrail in the median) are SUV's and 4wd trucks.
FWD with decent all season tires, and a competent driver will be fine for 95% of the driving conditions you encounter in the winter. For the other 5%, just stay home until the plows clear the road.
Most of my friends act like 4x2 pickups are useless. In reality I would only "need" 4wd about 3 days a year here. Why pay $3000 extra on my truck? I dont want the extra maintenance. I think AWD is a waste or materials and money. FWD with stick shift is the way to go. We need less automatic transmissions and more people learning how to control a car with a stick shift.
Nobody builds a FWD pickup do they? Not since the old VW's?
i really need awd in my subie just a few times a year, but man, it makes driving that much more fun the rest of the year as well.
in the snow and ice i don't push it or screw around too much (unless i'm in the empty lot at work
).
never been stuck with the subie, and awd has bailed my arse out on a couple occasions when my ego wrote checks my ability couldn't cash.
yeah, the gas mileage isn't all that great compared to fwd, but the driving experience is much more enjoyable. never had a reliability problem with either the stick or the automagic. the stick was a base 50-50 power split, while the auto is 90-10 while toodling about.
you can have my awd when you pry it from my cold, dead (wrapped around a telephone pole) hands.
in the snow and ice i don't push it or screw around too much (unless i'm in the empty lot at work
never been stuck with the subie, and awd has bailed my arse out on a couple occasions when my ego wrote checks my ability couldn't cash.
yeah, the gas mileage isn't all that great compared to fwd, but the driving experience is much more enjoyable. never had a reliability problem with either the stick or the automagic. the stick was a base 50-50 power split, while the auto is 90-10 while toodling about.
I recall seeing several different fairly new FWD pickups in Britain when I was there about 1995. Think of a Ranchero/El Camino type car on a US Compact sized FWD car chassis.
I had the impression they were used for light duty commercial work. Vans on passenger car looking chassis with raised rear roof sections were more popular in metropolitan areas.
My buddy who was purchasing a VW Quantum Syncro Wagon asked "how can AWD have any better control when all cars just have the 4 tires on the ground?" Answer is it's all about weight transfer and contact patch.
Totally ^^
AWD is superior. While a skilled driver could handle snow condition in RWD better then a unskileld driver with AWD.
That same skilled driver could do an even better job in AWD. AWD/4wd was made for a reason. And it works that why they are still made.
Remember AWD just isnt for SNOW, Its used in Rain and can also help you if say the road has alot of the small rocks on it.
I think the RWD bias guys just like to do burnouts and are rednecks - but thats my opinion.
side note:
Just saying RWD is bad or good is inaccurate. Since your have Front engine RWD and Mid engine RWD.
I have driven both an Mr2 turbo and 240sx with a sr20det. The MR2 owned in the snow thanks to the engine weight on the rear axles.
I thought I was gonna die in the 240sx.
But then I might be a little bias. I seem to have a natural skill in driving subarus
edit- forgot to add something.
Its funny, people complain about how the AWD cars arent nothign compared to RWD.
You can find most of the AWD cars specially the sports car like the WRX and EVO Lancer. They have an open front diff and a center diff and rear lsd.
That gives RWD handle with poor mans AWD. Since if you lose one front wheel the other goes. ANd most domestic AWD cars are setup like this.
Subaru STI or a 4x4 truck with lock diffs will have better handling in the snow.
Subaru STI uses a power on locking diff.
[ December 02, 2004, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Shadohh ]
It gets a consistant 22mpg(US) on the hiway. City driving is quite a bit lower though. Mine has the 3.3L, if your sisters has the 3.8L then that may be part of the reason.
People tend to confuse tire traction with number of driven wheels. If the tires aren't getting traction it doesn't matter if you have eleventeen wheel drive :^) Anyone remember seeing WWII footage of tanks sliding out of control across ice covered roads ? Winter is dangerous as people tend to confuse snow, hard (cold) ice, and soft (warm) ice traction. I see people in 4wd trucks and jeeps blasting around in deep, fresh snow, and then see them off the road after ice has formed. The mud tires do ok in snow but tend to be worthless on ice unless they're studded. People with the heavily siped but minimal void studless winter tires can do fine on hard ice and packed snow, but can get stuck in deeper stuff, especially if it's slushy. Ice close to freezing where a water film can form seems to be the most difficult surface to get traction on, and chains or studs seem to do best as even good studless snow tires tend to act like all season tires in these conditions. Add hills and changing weather conditions and you have a real mess.
A local TV station did people a service a few years back during an ice storm by showing that although 4wd is better than 2wd for getting started, in an ice covered parking lot, it doesn't help that much with cornering or breaking.
A local TV station did people a service a few years back during an ice storm by showing that although 4wd is better than 2wd for getting started, in an ice covered parking lot, it doesn't help that much with cornering or breaking.
You make some good points. This is why I have mentioned ground clearance in a couple of posts. Since I see a lot more rain, packed snow, and ice, then soft snow or mud, I haven't run snow tires since 1966. In the late 60's, I had Pirellis on both cars. On ice, I ran away from people with bias ply snow tires.
- Status
