I'm guessing it's something to do with the base stocks used?
Why do synthetic oils have a higher TBN?
- Thread starter jdavis
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is because they are awesomer! jk
I would guess the reason is the base stock holds up longer so they beef up the TBN (Total Base Number) to design the entire package to be run longer.
A big reason people run a synthetic is to extend OCIs a bit, and a higher TBN is to keep acids from forming during the longer run.
A big reason people run a synthetic is to extend OCIs a bit, and a higher TBN is to keep acids from forming during the longer run.
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I've never understood that either. Synthetics are nothing more than highly refined mineral oil (unless you pay big $$ for PAO and Ester boutiques) and used oil analysis/VOA's don't show a stronger additive package,unless they use adds that don't show up on entry level analyses.
Originally Posted By: toad
I always thought it was because the synthetic base oils have a higher lubricity which allows a higher additive/base oil ratio. This also explains why most synthetic oils have more detergents.
Compare the average levels of calcium and sodium levels on "conventional" vs "synthetic". Conventionals have a very slight edge on detergent additives and both are within 50PPM. Very well within the range of statical noise.
The VI, cold weather pumpablity, and NOACK are the areas where synthetics shine's vs conventional. TBN retention is hard to tell because most members here do not push their OCI's anywhere near the limits of lubrication.
I always thought it was because the synthetic base oils have a higher lubricity which allows a higher additive/base oil ratio. This also explains why most synthetic oils have more detergents.
Compare the average levels of calcium and sodium levels on "conventional" vs "synthetic". Conventionals have a very slight edge on detergent additives and both are within 50PPM. Very well within the range of statical noise.
The VI, cold weather pumpablity, and NOACK are the areas where synthetics shine's vs conventional. TBN retention is hard to tell because most members here do not push their OCI's anywhere near the limits of lubrication.
Most oil companies consider their synthetic products their premium products so they give it a premium additive package usually to go with it.
Because in light duty applications synthetics are designed for extended OCIs and conventional oils aren't. It has nothing to do with synthetic vs conventional superiority.
If you look at heavy duty applications, there are all sorts of conventional oils that will spank most if not all PCMO synthetic oils in TBN and their ability to go the distance.
Also TBN is just one aspect of oil makeup for extended OCIs, there are other factors as well.
If you look at heavy duty applications, there are all sorts of conventional oils that will spank most if not all PCMO synthetic oils in TBN and their ability to go the distance.
Also TBN is just one aspect of oil makeup for extended OCIs, there are other factors as well.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Because in light duty applications synthetics are designed for extended OCIs and conventional oils aren't. It has nothing to do with synthetic vs conventional superiority.
If you look at heavy duty applications, there are all sorts of conventional oils that will spank most if not all PCMO synthetic oils in TBN and their ability to go the distance.
Also TBN is just one aspect of oil makeup for extended OCIs, there are other factors as well.
They do not necessarily "spank" PCMO syn oils, the TBN is relatively comparable, that's not the difference between PCMO and HDEO. HDEO's are designed with hard use and high temperatures in mind, so they are mainly more shear resistant with more anti wear additives on average. EX is T5 10W30, its rated SM due to higher than SN wear additives (while having a similar TBN to PP) and its not rated as resource conserving due to higher viscosity for a 30w, but SN is not its target, a hard working diesel or gas engine is.
Because in light duty applications synthetics are designed for extended OCIs and conventional oils aren't. It has nothing to do with synthetic vs conventional superiority.
If you look at heavy duty applications, there are all sorts of conventional oils that will spank most if not all PCMO synthetic oils in TBN and their ability to go the distance.
Also TBN is just one aspect of oil makeup for extended OCIs, there are other factors as well.
They do not necessarily "spank" PCMO syn oils, the TBN is relatively comparable, that's not the difference between PCMO and HDEO. HDEO's are designed with hard use and high temperatures in mind, so they are mainly more shear resistant with more anti wear additives on average. EX is T5 10W30, its rated SM due to higher than SN wear additives (while having a similar TBN to PP) and its not rated as resource conserving due to higher viscosity for a 30w, but SN is not its target, a hard working diesel or gas engine is.
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Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Because in light duty applications synthetics are designed for extended OCIs and conventional oils aren't. It has nothing to do with synthetic vs conventional superiority.
If you look at heavy duty applications, there are all sorts of conventional oils that will spank most if not all PCMO synthetic oils in TBN and their ability to go the distance.
Also TBN is just one aspect of oil makeup for extended OCIs, there are other factors as well.
They do not necessarily "spank" PCMO syn oils, the TBN is relatively comparable, that's not the difference between PCMO and HDEO. HDEO's are designed with hard use and high temperatures in mind, so they are mainly more shear resistant with more anti wear additives on average. EX is T5 10W30, its rated SM due to higher than SN wear additives (while having a similar TBN to PP) and its not rated as resource conserving due to higher viscosity for a 30w, but SN is not its target, a hard working diesel or gas engine is.
The same can be said of the Euro oils though.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Because in light duty applications synthetics are designed for extended OCIs and conventional oils aren't. It has nothing to do with synthetic vs conventional superiority.
If you look at heavy duty applications, there are all sorts of conventional oils that will spank most if not all PCMO synthetic oils in TBN and their ability to go the distance.
Also TBN is just one aspect of oil makeup for extended OCIs, there are other factors as well.
They do not necessarily "spank" PCMO syn oils, the TBN is relatively comparable, that's not the difference between PCMO and HDEO. HDEO's are designed with hard use and high temperatures in mind, so they are mainly more shear resistant with more anti wear additives on average. EX is T5 10W30, its rated SM due to higher than SN wear additives (while having a similar TBN to PP) and its not rated as resource conserving due to higher viscosity for a 30w, but SN is not its target, a hard working diesel or gas engine is.
The same can be said of the Euro oils though.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Because in light duty applications synthetics are designed for extended OCIs and conventional oils aren't. It has nothing to do with synthetic vs conventional superiority.
If you look at heavy duty applications, there are all sorts of conventional oils that will spank most if not all PCMO synthetic oils in TBN and their ability to go the distance.
Also TBN is just one aspect of oil makeup for extended OCIs, there are other factors as well.
They do not necessarily "spank" PCMO syn oils, the TBN is relatively comparable, that's not the difference between PCMO and HDEO. HDEO's are designed with hard use and high temperatures in mind, so they are mainly more shear resistant with more anti wear additives on average. EX is T5 10W30, its rated SM due to higher than SN wear additives (while having a similar TBN to PP) and its not rated as resource conserving due to higher viscosity for a 30w, but SN is not its target, a hard working diesel or gas engine is.
The same can be said of the Euro oils though.
For the HTHS and anti wear additives it can be, but Euro's from what I have seen tend of have a lower TBN, not as much sulfur etc in their fuel so they don't need as much acid protection. Not the case for all but definitely the case for many. Castrol may be the one that I noticed that does have a higher TBN like US oils. I would say Mobil 1 0w40 as well but I am not convinced that oil was meant for euro as much as it was mean for turbo apps and high rev apps. Valvoline, Kendall, and the rest euro's tend to have lower TBN.
Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Because in light duty applications synthetics are designed for extended OCIs and conventional oils aren't. It has nothing to do with synthetic vs conventional superiority.
If you look at heavy duty applications, there are all sorts of conventional oils that will spank most if not all PCMO synthetic oils in TBN and their ability to go the distance.
Also TBN is just one aspect of oil makeup for extended OCIs, there are other factors as well.
They do not necessarily "spank" PCMO syn oils, the TBN is relatively comparable, that's not the difference between PCMO and HDEO. HDEO's are designed with hard use and high temperatures in mind, so they are mainly more shear resistant with more anti wear additives on average. EX is T5 10W30, its rated SM due to higher than SN wear additives (while having a similar TBN to PP) and its not rated as resource conserving due to higher viscosity for a 30w, but SN is not its target, a hard working diesel or gas engine is.
The same can be said of the Euro oils though.
For the HTHS and anti wear additives it can be, but Euro's from what I have seen tend of have a lower TBN, not as much sulfur etc in their fuel so they don't need as much acid protection. Not the case for all but definitely the case for many. Castrol may be the one that I noticed that does have a higher TBN like US oils. I would say Mobil 1 0w40 as well but I am not convinced that oil was meant for euro as much as it was mean for turbo apps and high rev apps. Valvoline, Kendall, and the rest euro's tend to have lower TBN.
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Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Because in light duty applications synthetics are designed for extended OCIs and conventional oils aren't. It has nothing to do with synthetic vs conventional superiority.
If you look at heavy duty applications, there are all sorts of conventional oils that will spank most if not all PCMO synthetic oils in TBN and their ability to go the distance.
Also TBN is just one aspect of oil makeup for extended OCIs, there are other factors as well.
They do not necessarily "spank" PCMO syn oils, the TBN is relatively comparable, that's not the difference between PCMO and HDEO. HDEO's are designed with hard use and high temperatures in mind, so they are mainly more shear resistant with more anti wear additives on average. EX is T5 10W30, its rated SM due to higher than SN wear additives (while having a similar TBN to PP) and its not rated as resource conserving due to higher viscosity for a 30w, but SN is not its target, a hard working diesel or gas engine is.
The same can be said of the Euro oils though.
For the HTHS and anti wear additives it can be, but Euro's from what I have seen tend of have a lower TBN, not as much sulfur etc in their fuel so they don't need as much acid protection. Not the case for all but definitely the case for many. Castrol may be the one that I noticed that does have a higher TBN like US oils. I would say Mobil 1 0w40 as well but I am not convinced that oil was meant for euro as much as it was mean for turbo apps and high rev apps. Valvoline, Kendall, and the rest euro's tend to have lower TBN.
You have to look at the suite of Euro specs being met. In that vein, Mobil 1 0w-40, Castrol 0w-40 and all the other oils that have the same approvals have high relative TBN's and robust additive packages to cope with high stress, high power density applications and extended drains.
Now, there are other Euro approvals that differ from the above, like the low SAPS ones, which cater more to European fuel, but those aren't generally the ones being shopped on this side of the pond, the full-SAPS oils above are.
There are HDEO's sold in Europe that are the same way.
My point was simply an ad-hoc to your own in that the API approvals are irrelevant for the Euro OEM's and often the Euro lubes will carry an outdated API rating, if they bother to carry one at all.
I believe there are exceptions in both veins (HDEO and Euro oils) but that regarding the products that are generally available to us (like those already mentioned) that this holds true.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Because in light duty applications synthetics are designed for extended OCIs and conventional oils aren't. It has nothing to do with synthetic vs conventional superiority.
If you look at heavy duty applications, there are all sorts of conventional oils that will spank most if not all PCMO synthetic oils in TBN and their ability to go the distance.
Also TBN is just one aspect of oil makeup for extended OCIs, there are other factors as well.
They do not necessarily "spank" PCMO syn oils, the TBN is relatively comparable, that's not the difference between PCMO and HDEO. HDEO's are designed with hard use and high temperatures in mind, so they are mainly more shear resistant with more anti wear additives on average. EX is T5 10W30, its rated SM due to higher than SN wear additives (while having a similar TBN to PP) and its not rated as resource conserving due to higher viscosity for a 30w, but SN is not its target, a hard working diesel or gas engine is.
The same can be said of the Euro oils though.
For the HTHS and anti wear additives it can be, but Euro's from what I have seen tend of have a lower TBN, not as much sulfur etc in their fuel so they don't need as much acid protection. Not the case for all but definitely the case for many. Castrol may be the one that I noticed that does have a higher TBN like US oils. I would say Mobil 1 0w40 as well but I am not convinced that oil was meant for euro as much as it was mean for turbo apps and high rev apps. Valvoline, Kendall, and the rest euro's tend to have lower TBN.
You have to look at the suite of Euro specs being met. In that vein, Mobil 1 0w-40, Castrol 0w-40 and all the other oils that have the same approvals have high relative TBN's and robust additive packages to cope with high stress, high power density applications and extended drains.
Now, there are other Euro approvals that differ from the above, like the low SAPS ones, which cater more to European fuel, but those aren't generally the ones being shopped on this side of the pond, the full-SAPS oils above are.
There are HDEO's sold in Europe that are the same way.
My point was simply an ad-hoc to your own in that the API approvals are irrelevant for the Euro OEM's and often the Euro lubes will carry an outdated API rating, if they bother to carry one at all.
I believe there are exceptions in both veins (HDEO and Euro oils) but that regarding the products that are generally available to us (like those already mentioned) that this holds true.
Very good point, GC is a good example, especially the 0w30. I don't have any idea how TBN works between synthetic vs. conventional though, I will be one to admit that. Whether they just add more because they know you might run the synthetic longer, but then there are some that make that statement untrue. Pennzoil, Quaker State and Havoline conventionals rival or match the starting TBN of their group III brothers. From used oil analysis on here they also seem to retain it almost as well, so I (opinion of course)assume that maybe the only thing gained would be better flow characteristics and maybe less varnish formation, maybe a little less burn off. Sludge almost seems to be a thing of the past (non turbo engines)with quality oils as long as someone doesn't try to push the absolute limits for the life of the engine. My point before I got side tracked a bit was that its not necessarily true that HDEO's are higher in TBN than PCMO's, especially the synthetic ones as someone wanted to point to.
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