Why do I bother?

[refaller]

My sister in law wanted a new car so I offered to help because I love cars and used to sell them. As we debated between a Lexus IS250 with AWD and an ES350 the salesman stated that AWD is a big advantage. In this area there is not much snow and in the 12 years 162,000 miles I have owned my AWD CRV I have felt it kick in maybe 5 times. Each of those times FWD would have made it anyway. Meanwhile, I pay a gas mileage penalty for the AWD every stinking day of those 12 years. Here is where the salesman went awry. He said, "AWD helps you stop better." Whaaaaa? Please tell me you aren't serious. So after a few minutes of arguing with him, I give up. Then I wonder why do I bother to try and correct people like that. I get more frustrated then they do and clearly no amount of logic was going to help. I should've just agreed and moved on to blinker fluid change intervals. BTW, she got the IS because it is cuter and the other car made her look like a mother- which she is. Not understanding women is a different topic though.

ref

 

[flanso]

Well, at least she'll be able to stop better.

 

[cchase]

What reason did he give for that, out of curiosity?

 

[CharBaby]

My wife loves her '01 RX-300 AWD!
We HAVE gotten enough snow in the last decade to warrent AWD IMHO but, the snow removal in my area is GREAT to where FWD would have done the job anyway. But, it is what it is!

The differences in MPG between the "same model" AWD vs FWD/RWD isn't worth arguing over as it is between one vehicle that DOES get good MPG and another that DOES NOT!

As-far-as the same model vehicle having a shorter stopping distance in the AWD version...Well, it may depend on the vehicle.

But, I'd agree with you [refaller]

It's all of the electronic gizmoes(ABS/TC)and good tires/brakes friction material that controls the stopping, not the AWD! It's all of those gizmoes that help with slippery starting & traction control(control being the key word).

For your SIL wanting the IS over the ES...My wife likes the IS better too! I like the ES just for the comfort difference as I have driven both.

 

[Spazdog]

AWD helps you stop better?

Does it drop down another set of wheels for more tire to ground contact or do FWD/RWD cars not have brakes on their non-driven wheels.

Last time I checked, AWD/FWD/RWD cars all had "all-wheel brakes"

A large amount of the vehicles wrecked out upside down in the median during the last ice storm were 4WD/AWD. It makes sense to me that their ability to get their vehicle moving led to overconfidence and then they discovered that they did not have any more ability to turn or stop than any of the other vehicles in the ice.

 

[NateDN10]

Originally Posted By: flanso
Well, at least she'll be able to stop better.

 

[hypervish]

Originally Posted By: Char Baby
My wife loves her '01 RX-300 AWD!
We HAVE gotten enough snow in the last decade to warrent AWD IMHO but, the snow removal in my area is GREAT to where FWD would have done the job anyway. But, it is what it is!

The differences in MPG between the "same model" AWD vs FWD/RWD isn't worth arguing over as it is between one vehicle that DOES get good MPG and another that DOES NOT!

As-far-as the same model vehicle having a shorter stopping distance in the AWD version...Well, it may depend on the vehicle.

But, I'd agree with you [refaller]

It's all of the electronic gizmoes(ABS/TC)and good tires/brakes friction material that controls the stopping, not the AWD! It's all of those gizmoes that help with slippery starting & traction control(control being the key word).

For your SIL wanting the IS over the ES...My wife likes the IS better too! I like the ES just for the comfort difference as I have driven both.


X2, I'm thankful for having AWD. There have been times that I would have been SOL without it, but having the AWD saved my arse. I spend a lot of time out in Michigan and Chicago, their winters are terrible, which is the main reason I opted for AWD.

But, yeah AWD definitely does not help braking when actually using the brake's. AWD might "brake" better when using engine braking to slow down the car, as there is more drag. lol, but certainly nothing to warrant saying that AWD helps stop the car faster.

 

[IndyIan]

The IS250 is RWD or AWD I believe. Given that I'd say AWD is the better option for someone who probably won't remember which axle is driving the car. Maybe all the electronics make RWD idiot proof but I doubt it would be good at all in 1" of wet dense snow.

 

[spackard]

So, measure the 60-0 of the FWD car, then pace back from the side wall of his showroom the same distance, then place a cone 25 feet closer to the side wall, and ask him to demonstrate to you the superior AWD braking. Tell him he better be doing 60 until he is even with the cone.
Take video, and post on the Internet.

 

[Eddie]

I feel your pain refaller. I have a scarred tongue trying not to correct. Some of us were not placed on earth to correct the ignorant. )

 

[OldCowboy]

Originally Posted By: spackard
So, measure the 60-0 of the FWD car, then pace back from the side wall of his showroom the same distance, then place a cone 25 feet closer to the side wall, and ask him to demonstrate to you the superior AWD braking. Tell him he better be doing 60 until he is even with the cone.
Take video, and post on the Internet.

 

[GMBoy]

I am a proponent of AWD. Most people only focus on the snow adnd foul weather benefits..but the benefits are really all year long. Rain is much better with AWD, those flooded spots in the road don't pull you out of your lane so bad and in the dry you have additional traction where there is fine sand and other debris like on some roads. I have always had atleast one AWD vehicle in my fleet of personal cars. My current AWD is a 2006 GMC Sierra Denali. No fishtailing or tire spin when leaving a light in the wet. The slight loss in MPG doesn't matter to me. The extra margin of safety and security far outweigh maybe a 1-2 mpg penalty. The only additional maintenace is a transfer case. I change the fluid every 30k miles (way ahead of what is called for) with synthetic. A quart of fluid and 30 minutes of my time is not problem.

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: refaller
My sister in law wanted a new car so I offered to help because I love cars and used to sell them. As we debated between a Lexus IS250 with AWD and an ES350 the salesman stated that AWD is a big advantage. In this area there is not much snow and in the 12 years 162,000 miles I have owned my AWD CRV I have felt it kick in maybe 5 times. Each of those times FWD would have made it anyway. Meanwhile, I pay a gas mileage penalty for the AWD every stinking day of those 12 years. Here is where the salesman went awry. He said, "AWD helps you stop better." Whaaaaa? Please tell me you aren't serious. So after a few minutes of arguing with him, I give up. Then I wonder why do I bother to try and correct people like that. I get more frustrated then they do and clearly no amount of logic was going to help. I should've just agreed and moved on to blinker fluid change intervals. BTW, she got the IS because it is cuter and the other car made her look like a mother- which she is. Not understanding women is a different topic though.

ref



I like the IS 250 very much for the handling. However, it is really not that fast, and the penalty for the handling is a very harsh ride. Hence I prefer the GS model myself.

 

[Dave Sherman]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog


Last time I checked, AWD/FWD/RWD cars all had "all-wheel brakes"

A large amount of the vehicles wrecked out upside down in the median during the last ice storm were 4WD/AWD. It makes sense to me that their ability to get their vehicle moving led to overconfidence and then they discovered that they did not have any more ability to turn or stop than any of the other vehicles in the ice.


So true. I once got in a discussion with someone who believed that "all-wheel drive" or "four wheel drive" also means "four wheel braking" and greatly enhances your stopping ability, but she wouldn't believe me when I pointed out that even 2 wheel drive cars have 4 wheel brakes, unless you're driving an antique.

 

[01rangerxl]

AWD can do anything the salesman wants as long as it makes his commission bigger.

Most salespeople don't know that much about cars and probably aren't even really car guys. Some are, but overall the job is more about how you talk to customers than what you know about cars. Unfortunately many consumers don't know any better.

 

[crw]

Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
AWD can do anything the salesman wants as long as it makes his commission bigger.

Most salespeople don't know that much about cars and probably aren't even really car guys. Some are, but overall the job is more about how you talk to customers than what you know about cars. Unfortunately many consumers don't know any better.


So true!

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: refaller
BTW, she got the IS because it is cuter and the other car made her look like a mother- which she is. Not understanding women is a different topic though.


My female coworker got the IS250 because of the cute factor and now she is [censored] about the premium gas prices and drives her husband's corolla as mach as she can. Hard to please.

 

[bepperb]

The low profile tires on an IS250 will have a lot less snow traction than your CRV. I'm not saying you weren't right, just that the AWD might be a bit more usefull on that.

Car salesguys are all over the board on car knowledge, but they're never a good source as they have a vested interest in selling you a car.

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
The low profile tires on an IS250 will have a lot less snow traction than your CRV.


I don't think that's correct.

Profile helps with ground clearance, not traction.

If you took the same exact model snow tire, say Blizzak WS-70, and stayed with the same width and same wheel diameter, changing only the profile, and kept it on the same vehicle, I highly doubt actual traction is going to increase due to the higher diameter sidewall.

BC.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: bepperb
The low profile tires on an IS250 will have a lot less snow traction than your CRV.


I don't think that's correct.

Profile helps with ground clearance, not traction.

If you took the same exact model snow tire, say Blizzak WS-70, and stayed with the same width and same wheel diameter, changing only the profile, and kept it on the same vehicle, I highly doubt actual traction is going to increase due to the higher diameter sidewall.

BC.

I think you would get slightly better winter traction with high profile tires given equal width and equal overall diameter, because the taller softer side wall will deflect more allowing the tread to be more flexible and stick instead of being rigid and slipping when you momentarily loose grip. Also you could run lower tire pressures which gives the car a lower effective spring rate which helps in slippery conditions. Think of serious off-road truck tires, they always have a high profile.
The main advantage of tall sidewalls is you can get an equal load rating with a narrower tire, which IMO helps in more winter driving conditions than it hurts.