Wanna know why gas is going up - part 2

[bob_ninja]

Due to the popular demand here is part 2.
People get emotinal and it is easy to judge others, or sound like being judgmental. While I do that all the time, I am more interested in *UNDERSTANDING* how people behave, or why they behave in a certain way as much as it is possible. So this time I present a more complex case:

middle class average salary, working extra constructions jobs for some extra money, single 2 year old kid, single dog

All in all your average family, nothing special.

Present: pickup truck (around 5L engine) and Jeep SUV (around 4L engine)

The man is very active. Besides regular jobs, does volunteer fire fighting, side constructions jobs and at present doing house expansaion. So he is active and from time to time is carrying supplies. He likes a lot of room to comfortably fit kid and dog in pickup. When I asked him yesterday about downsizing one of his vehicles to a smaller car he scoffed, "My family is not getting smaller!"

So he is conservative. He mentioned his friend getting a hybrid Camry to no effect. We do drive a lot of highway and backroads, steady speed where hybrid technology doesn't help much. Not to mention the high premium for cars in general and hybrids here in Canada, where hybrid is $30+K

So he sees nothing wrong with driving pickup and SUV, doesn't think much of hybrids and simply blaims big oil. He shares the common belief that big oil is gauging us. I may not share his beliefs but I can see where he is coming from. Doing construction work means more space, power, cargo capacity, etc.

The usual, I need a pickup in case I need to haul some cargo. Again I don't think that way, but it is a free country.

His wife would like a higher salary so guess doesn't make too much. She drives the SUV and hates paying a lot of money for gas. Therefore, she uses park and ride. Drives about 20 miles, then takes a bus. You could say she is doing her bit to help.

Moreover, she is very economical with driving. She prefers shorter trips and doesn't like driving far. Again, because she is concerned with spending too much on gas it affects her driving. So they tend to go less with their kid for activities, like to a beach and such. Sometimes my wife offers to drive her in our car although these days it is tough with combined 3 kids between us.

So far we have a conflicted picture. They like a lot of space in their vehicles, but then don't go anywhere because of expensive fuel. Of course, they take an occasional trip out of town, but not very often. They tend to drive locally.

Another interesting aspect is discussion of a new vehicle. Keep in mind that the woman is interested in reducing their fuel costs. So clearly she wants a more fuel efficient vehicle. Still, speaking with the man the other day he scoffed at downsizing to car and instead said he wants another SUV! Meanwhile the woman is thinking of the future, the 2nd child she'd like, so she is leaning to a van.

Of course judgmental me would say that is crazy. We do fine with Honda and Mazda cars with 2 kids, only use an SUV for winter storms, and they already need a van before 2nd child is born. Sure they have a dog as well, but he doesn't need much. Remember then don't take many long trips.

However, I am really puzzled by their thinking. How do you want more fuel efficient vehicle, yet want a big vehicle and at the same time don't like hybrids???? What good is a lot of space in vehicle that you won't driver much??? If you don't take any longer trips then of what use is a lot of space in a pickup/SUV/van????

They just seem so conflicted. What I really don't understand is why people who already have a pickup and SUV don't want a smaller car in addition for short trips driving alone. They have plenty of space, big garage. Also, while bigger vehicles are nice, the majority of their driving is alone to work where all the extra space is wasted. So why such a resistance to smaller cars or cars of any size?????

P.S.: Just in case you are wondering why I don't ask them these questions directly, the man gets very emotional very quickly, so wouldn't do any good to ask. The woman is more interested in their WANTS as opposed to NEEDS, so again wouldn't really accomplish anyting. Hence I am asking you to put on psycho hat and analyze.

 

[Cutehumor]

because driving a small car means your poor, they don't call it "economy" car for nothing! Great advertising has brain washed the masses! Mad Men tv show would be proud.

 

[John_K]

Quote:
The woman is more interested in their WANTS as opposed to NEEDS


That sums it all up. Most Americans want big vehicles because they have been conditioned to think they want them. Needs are irrelevant to most people, or they really don't know how to define a "need".

John

 

[globey]

Originally Posted By: John_K
Quote:
The woman is more interested in their WANTS as opposed to NEEDS


That sums it all up. Most Americans want big vehicles because they have been conditioned to think they want them. Needs are irrelevant to most people, or they really don't know how to define a "need".

John


That's nice, except the original poster is from Canada. I'm assuming this story is about his Canadian neighbors.

 

[bob_ninja]

Yes Canadian family. However in many ways we are not that different. Certainly you'll see a lot more cars on our roads, but also plenty of bigger vehicles.

Hence I am very puzzled. It would be very easy for them to get a cheap used Honda or Toyota as there are plenty of Civics and Corollas on the roads.

Another neighbour, next house actually, has 4 sons. They have a van, of course, plus another car. The man goes to work in a car, the woman stays home with kids and uses the van. There are several families like that - van/car combo. So many are sensible.

Then again another hard working neighbour is up to 3 pickups (one of them belongs to the son) and recently got a car. To be fair he uses one truck for snow clearing, plus his son will join him next winter. Still it took them a long time to get a car.

So it is mixed.

 

[John_K]

Yeah, I meant Canadians and Americans, sorry.

John

 

[97prizm]

The major reasons for the increase in gas prices and Diesel for that matter is supply, and demand due to A) India and B) China having developing and growing economies. India and China are seeing their economies boom, especially with the weak Dollar. America has had record number of orders for drilling equipment made where else In America. Now that Indians and Chinese citizens can afford cars, they too need gas, and oil related products. Oil prices have always been supply and demand related. Most people don't realize that within the last 20 years oil extraction has gone from a 30% extraction rate to 75 to 80% extraction rate. This means that a large number of oil wells, or pockets that were considered "Dry" can now be extracted.

 

[PF52]

Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
because driving a small car means your poor, they don't call it "economy" car for nothing! Great advertising has brain washed the masses!


You are exactly right. I live in one of Chicago's wealthier suburbs, and no one here drives a small car; well, that is except me. I sometimes joke that I'll get turned away at the village limits because I'm not driving a big SUV.

 

[OVERKILL]

I want to buy a diesel Excursion

 

[ffracer]

..and how many know how to drive a manual transmission and will switch (unless they live in bumper to bumper gridlock- where a hybrid makes sense)? There's 8% right there, plus better performance and response.

I was in Europe and drove a few (Euro Ford Focus, Seat Altea) very roomy, great handling diesels with 6-speed manuals and gobs of torque: 45+mpg. Fast, nimble, roomy, fun, and economical.

It is physics. Pretty straight forward.

 

[eljefino]

There are a lot of men I know who still have gas guzzlers in their driveways. They're borrowing their girlfriends' neons though.

Corner them and they admit it's for gas.

The pride that whole family feels is an extention of this phenomena, in this case they're mooching off a 3rd party's car.

As far as contractors etc go, they need to raise their rates to cover costs... or have a larger minimum number of hours billable per job visit etc.

A van that gets 21 MPG over an 18 MPG SUV doesn't sound like much but it's 16.7% better... like getting gas for $3.25 instead of $3.799.

She should go for it.

 

[glennc]

Very interesting OP. I have wondered very much the same thing myself. These people obviously aren't unintelligent, but they appear to be making unintelligent decisions. The conclusion I have always come to is the obvious one: that they put a high value, possibly unconsciously, on fitting in; keeping up appearances: whatever you want to call it. You can look down on that but it is a valued trait in most aspects of life. Think of the professional world and the value it puts on being a team player, and the "don't rock the boat" impulse. It is part of their uniform, like chaps to a Harley rider or a posh loft to the urban hip. They project who they are through what they drive, where they live, what they wear and how they talk.

Does anybody not?

They will change what they drive after and not before the cultural shift that will inevitably come along, as it always does, to re-align fashion with whatever tomorrow's reality turns out to be.

 

[wander2039]

Sounds like my sister and brother-in-law. Have a full-size truck, Jeep Commander and mini-van. I don't think any of them get over 20mph more so with how they drive. She drives 100miles to college and over 100 miles work. They've had to borrow money from the our parents a couple times recently. He's to worried about being cool... I guess a 4 dr sedan isn't cool in his circle.

With us we have a Escape and Ranger. The Escape gets 21-22 and the Ranger 28-30. The Escape only gets driven when we take the boy otherwise we drive the truck.

 

[Benzadmiral]

Why the heck are all these people living so far from work and/or school? I've always figured in any commute when I considered a move or a change of job. If my commute takes more than half an hour each way, I figure something has got to change.

You could say that The Swamp, New Orleans, doesn't have as much traffic or the commute problems of other cities. True (though it can get pretty bad in rush hour if one of the only two bridges across the river is blocked). But even when I lived in Denver, which 7 to 10 years ago was already shaping up as a little L.A., I made sure I had no more than a 30-minute good-weather commute to work.

Remember the news story we discussed here about a family who moved way the heck out on the Colorado plains, then decided to give up their home because their work commutes were killing them in gas purchases? Here's a tip, sweeties: Don't move so far away from your work. If you can't afford a closer place, then maybe you just can't afford a home right now -- especially if you're only buying it because you "need a bigger home for a growing family." Stop the family growth for a while before getting yourself deeper into debt.

 

[BrianWC]

I was but a wee lad when we last had our oil troubles in the 70's, but I would think that the gen x'ers and older crowd still resent the small economy cars of the late 70's thru mid 90's. I mean, if you cut your teeth on a Ford Pinto, Ford Escort, Dodge Omni, Mazda 323, Chevy Chevette, Nissan Sentra or Heaven forbid a Hyundai Exel, you may still resent small cars. Especially if you were given these hunks second hand.

When I was in high school

As for my parents generation (just pre-baby boom), my mother thinks her v-6 Accord IS an economy car.

 

[bob_ninja]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
....
A van that gets 21 MPG over an 18 MPG SUV doesn't sound like much but it's 16.7% better... like getting gas for $3.25 instead of $3.799.

She should go for it.


However how long will it take this autumn for a 16.7% gas price increase? Month? 2 months? Such a small improvement gets wiped out in no time these days. We need more like 50% to 100% improvement.

 

[bob_ninja]

Originally Posted By: glennc
Very interesting OP. I have wondered very much the same thing myself. These people obviously aren't unintelligent, but they appear to be making unintelligent decisions. The conclusion I have always come to is the obvious one: that they put a high value, possibly unconsciously, on fitting in; keeping up appearances: whatever you want to call it. ....


There is something to it. Once I happened to look at a parking lot of a fire station and only found pickup trucks. I guess you have to project a tough guy image. At the same time for them they seem to be putting a huge value on convenience, comfort, etc.

So why does North America put such a high value on comfort when it comes to vehicles???? Why are we willing to sacrifice so much (trips with kids and other stuff) just to have a lot of comfort and convenience in a vehicle?

I was once told when discussing vans that the primary reason for using a van was to not have to lean down when putting kids into seats. Vans and SUVs are taller so easier to put kids into seats. So for him the convenience of easy handling of children seemed to be the prevailing factor.

I don't think that the rest of the world cares so much. They tend to put more importance on cost, functionality, etc.

 

[bob_ninja]

Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Why the heck are all these people living so far from work and/or school?...


I have to admit 100 mile one way commute is too much. I have abouot 35 miles one way and consider that a lot. I just wanted to point out that jobs move a lot these days. Even if you get a house close to a job, still the job can move away from you.

My entire office was laid off just few weeks ago. Nothing to do with my performance or anything I could do about it. The new job happens to be in the same area, but I did work all over the town.

So often we don't control where our jobs are located. Still, you have a good point. Excessive commutes are not sustainable.

 

[BrianWC]

Originally Posted By: bob_ninja
Originally Posted By: glennc
Very interesting OP. I have wondered very much the same thing myself. These people obviously aren't unintelligent, but they appear to be making unintelligent decisions. The conclusion I have always come to is the obvious one: that they put a high value, possibly unconsciously, on fitting in; keeping up appearances: whatever you want to call it. ....


There is something to it. Once I happened to look at a parking lot of a fire station and only found pickup trucks. I guess you have to project a tough guy image. At the same time for them they seem to be putting a huge value on convenience, comfort, etc.

So why does North America put such a high value on comfort when it comes to vehicles???? Why are we willing to sacrifice so much (trips with kids and other stuff) just to have a lot of comfort and convenience in a vehicle?

I was once told when discussing vans that the primary reason for using a van was to not have to lean down when putting kids into seats. Vans and SUVs are taller so easier to put kids into seats. So for him the convenience of easy handling of children seemed to be the prevailing factor.

I don't think that the rest of the world cares so much. They tend to put more importance on cost, functionality, etc.


Maybe in a family where one parent works and one stays at home it's not as big of a deal. But I know when I was shopping for my CR-V, I desperately wanted a small 4wd truck. I needed a minimum of off-road capability due to my job at the time and needed some cargo space. At the time, though, I was commuting 70 miles one way and new I'd be starting a family soon. Since I knew there were going to be times I would have to pick up the kids, given the wife's schedule, I couldn't get a single cab truck.

So, we compromised and got our CR-V. I was lucky that I only had to use it off road a couple of times and certainly not in big rutted out gumbo mud holes. Thankfully, I got on with the forest service and was given a rig to drive. The CR-V hasn't cost us that much in gas since my wife mainly uses it to drop the kids off and go to work. I was able to get a car since I no longer needed a lot of cargo room.

Looking back to when I was a kid, I was always bothered by the fact that my dad didn't drive a truck. But he always had a long commute himself and went from driving v-8 muscle cars to Chevettes and Cavaliers. When I started the long distance thing myself, I learned just how smart my dad was.

FWIW, I work for the Forest Service and we're full of "manly men" like wildland fire fighters and foresters. In the past six months, I've seen one co-worker go from his old Nissan Hardbody to riding his motorcycle exclusively, one guy go from his 4wd Tacoma to a 92 Nissan Sentra, and one this week went from a late 90's Pathfinder to a 4 cylinder Malibu.

Oh, and regarding vans, when you have more than 2 kids, the seating arrangement works out better in vans. We have three kids that need car seats and in our CR-V and in my SAAB the three kids across the backseat are packed like sardines.

 

[firemachine69]

Originally Posted By: glennc
Very interesting OP. I have wondered very much the same thing myself. These people obviously aren't unintelligent, but they appear to be making unintelligent decisions. The conclusion I have always come to is the obvious one: that they put a high value, possibly unconsciously, on fitting in; keeping up appearances: whatever you want to call it. You can look down on that but it is a valued trait in most aspects of life. Think of the professional world and the value it puts on being a team player, and the "don't rock the boat" impulse. It is part of their uniform, like chaps to a Harley rider or a posh loft to the urban hip. They project who they are through what they drive, where they live, what they wear and how they talk.

Does anybody not?

They will change what they drive after and not before the cultural shift that will inevitably come along, as it always does, to re-align fashion with whatever tomorrow's reality turns out to be.




I *could* have afforded a G8 GT (single, no kids, very well-paying job), but I came to my senses and decided I wasn't going to invest a quarter of my paychecks to 'big oil'.

The odd combination of car and driver sure seems to attract female attention (I'm not sure if it's the right kind however.

)