Why aren't we all using HDEOs?

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Originally Posted By: EricJRoy
anyone who takes a cat off for a stupid reason is selfish and definitely not thiniking about the future


That may be. However, for better or for worse, there is no law covering cats in this jurisdiction. Are those people who still drive vehicles that never had cats in the first place selfish?

If I went to a fleet manager in this jurisdiction and told him he should replace failed cats out of principle, paying hundreds of dollars instead of welding in a piece of straight pipe, he'd suggest that would be the pinnacle of stupidity.

If one isn't legally required to replace a piece of failed equipment and it wasn't essential for the safe and affordable operation of the vehicle, I can certainly understand why people would simply toss the failed cats and move on without them. I would venture to say that if this policy, or lack thereof, were in place across North America, almost every cat replacement we would see would be only those replaced under warranty.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: EricJRoy
anyone who takes a cat off for a stupid reason is selfish and definitely not thiniking about the future


That may be. However, for better or for worse, there is no law covering cats in this jurisdiction. Are those people who still drive vehicles that never had cats in the first place selfish?

If I went to a fleet manager in this jurisdiction and told him he should replace failed cats out of principle, paying hundreds of dollars instead of welding in a piece of straight pipe, he'd suggest that would be the pinnacle of stupidity.

If one isn't legally required to replace a piece of failed equipment and it wasn't essential for the safe and affordable operation of the vehicle, I can certainly understand why people would simply toss the failed cats and move on without them. I would venture to say that if this policy, or lack thereof, were in place across North America, almost every cat replacement we would see would be only those replaced under warranty.


Wow..I never thought Canada wouldn't have a law which required cats, but then again your population is about only 1/10 of that of the US pop.
 
Well, in most provinces emmisions testing is required. Saskatchewan is almost the size of Texas with about 1 million people... So smog isn't really an issue! Although downtown Regina must've got a bit hydrocarbony for that day in 2008 when it wasn't windy...
BC and Ontario are considering going to the the California standards for emmisions as we have areas of very high population density and car use.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan

BC and Ontario are considering going to the the California standards for emmisions as we have areas of very high population density and car use.


Aruugh! Bite your tongue, Norm: BITE YOUR TONGUE!

"If all your friends were jumping off the cliff would you...

...JUMP OFF THE CLIFF, TOO?"
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Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Although downtown Regina must've got a bit hydrocarbony for that day in 2008 when it wasn't windy...


I heard that. Luckily, our winds are predominantly to the west, so the few hydrocarbons we emit head your way.

You're quite right, though. With our population, and more importantly, the population density, there isn't much of an incentive to have a bunch of emissions testing.

The really bad vehicles out there tend to have a lot more wrong with them than the emissions systems, and can be dealt with by the police and Highway Transport patrol for other infractions and taken off the road.
 
Actually, in Canada, there are national emission standards, and the DOT spells out what acceptable emissions are from the tail-pipe, and that to meet the levels required a Catalytic Converter is required.

So the Fleet manager who just chops the cats off the exhaust system and welds in cheater pipes, is knowingly breaking the law and is putting his bosses on the line for large fines.

Just an FYI, and yes I would love to see the day in SK when the douche with the jacked up diesel truck running a gutted exhaust gets pulled over and the sniffer gets put on his pipe and he tries to explain away the hug clouds of cancer causing death he's spewing into everyones faces... :|

Oh and most trucks/cars on the roads in SK that are spewing smoke, are usually in desperate need of repair and are usually more than just a little unsafe, the road checks are happening in Stoon, and they are starting to drift south...
wink.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: gamefoo21
Actually, in Canada, there are national emission standards, and the DOT spells out what acceptable emissions are from the tail-pipe, and that to meet the levels required a Catalytic Converter is required.

So the Fleet manager who just chops the cats off the exhaust system and welds in cheater pipes, is knowingly breaking the law and is putting his bosses on the line for large fines.


You're right about the national emissions standards, but misinformed about the enforcement of them. Those standards apply to new vehicles being sold only. With respect to this, I speak from experience.

In Saskatchewan, for example, taxis (and virtually every other commercial vehicle) are inspected twice annually. One is done under the Commercial Vehicle Inspection program, and one is done by the police. They essentially cover many of the same things, though the Commercial Vehicle Inspection program is more in depth with respect to things like alignment, shocks, brakes, and so forth. So, yes, a smoking vehicle may be indicative of other problems. A vehicle whose emissions system is toast likely has other problems that could easily get it taken off the road.

There is zero inspection of the emissions system. There is no law on the books in Saskatchewan prohibiting tampering with the emissions system. Dozens of taxis go through twice annual inspections with no catalytic converters, without any consequence. The police and the province issue a pass to exhaust systems with or without a catalytic converter, provided they have no other issues.

With respect to the federal law, there is no enforcement provision for vehicles already on the road with respect to emissions.
 
If you've ever seen what the air looks like over most major cities outside of the western world, you'd be very thankful for emission testing. Try going for a run through Mexico City on a summer day. The visibility on a nice day is often a few miles - due to smoke.

It's a PITA to have to pass emissions tests. But after over 300,000 km I am passing mine ok in Ottawa. Although it's a bit of a cash grab, it does make the air cleaner for those living in cities.
 
Originally Posted By: Gannet167
If you've ever seen what the air looks like over most major cities outside of the western world, you'd be very thankful for emission testing. Try going for a run through Mexico City on a summer day. The visibility on a nice day is often a few miles - due to smoke.

It's a PITA to have to pass emissions tests. But after over 300,000 km I am passing mine ok in Ottawa. Although it's a bit of a cash grab, it does make the air cleaner for those living in cities.


I understand those concerns. However, Saskatchewan is almost as large as Texas, yet has a population barely over 1,000,000. Mexico City has a population in excess of Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba combined.

I can understand Ontario having emissions testing, considering its population density. The only time the air ever gets hazy in Saskatchewan is when there are forest fires up north.

Simply put, those in this province simply do not have to worry about catalytic converters. For good or for bad, those of us who drive in Saskatchewan simply don't matter in the grand scheme of things. The oil companies won't get rich off of our consumption, the car makers won't get rich off of our purchases, and the environment wouldn't notice if everyone in the province dumped their cat in the dumpster.

The effect of an oil with a high amount of ZDDP on a catalytic converter is an issue to absolutely no one in this province, and I doubt it will change anytime soon. For the average new vehicle, SM oil is required. Just about every HDEO meets SM, and that's good enough for most warranties.

Besides, as has been said elsewhere, has there been an epidemic of failed cats somewhere that we haven't heard about?
 
Originally Posted By: Scotty1981
I'm reluctant to run anything other than the owners manual reccomended oil in my cars.


Do not be reluctant, Scotty, do not restrict yourself to one grade of oil.
 
Originally Posted By: madibob
I curious as to why more people aren't using HDEOs in their gasoline cars. As I read here, a lot of people are using them due to their "stout" additive packages. If this is the case, why don't more people use these in their gasoline engines (i.e. RTS and Mobil TDT 5w-40)instead of the regular gasoline oils?


Because most people think of HDEO's as "diesel oils" even the guys at my local advanced ask me what kind of diesel I have and tell me I can't use that oil in my gas engine. That and what was mentioned about no 5w40 and 5w20 HDEOs available OTC.
 
Originally Posted By: lipadj46
That and what was mentioned about no 5w40 and 5w20 HDEOs available OTC.


I'd agree on the 5w-20 part, but there are plenty of 5w-40 HDEOs available over the counter. M1 TDT instantly springs to mind as widely available.
 
this question about why arent we all using hdeo also relates to motorcycles..some bike oils have higher zi/ph like the diesel oils,but the latter is cheaper..however,most late model bikes have one or more catalysts..Canada,you are going to love California's emission laws...NOT
 
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Found this explanation a while back but cannot recall where...

Quote:
Here are the differences between diesel engine oil and gasoline engine oil. In a modern diesel engine there is substantial exhaust soot contamination that the engine oil must contend with. Diesel oil is designed with much higher levels of detergency and dispersency to fight the soot contamination. Like ZDDP anti-wear chemistry, detergents are a surface active chemistry and compete directly for space on metal surfaces, such as the cam lobe and lifter face. So, in practice, the effective level of Zinc anti-wear is a bit lower than what we expect it to be based solely on chemical analysis. Additionally, the ZDDP that is generally used in diesel formulas is primary ZDDP (which activates at higher engine temperatures) since a diesel engine runs predominantly at operating temperature. In a gasoline engine, we must have both primary and secondary ZDDP (which activates at lower temperatures) since the engine will experience a significant number of cold starts. Also, the viscosity modifier polymers that are used in multi-viscosity engine oil to prevent viscosity loss at operating temperature (to protect the bearings) are different for diesel oil and gasoline oil. Diesels operate at essentially the same rpm all day long and need polymers that are shear stable to protect the bearings. Gasoline engines experience many large ranges of rpm during operation and require polymers that have both shear stability and thickening efficiency capability to protect the bearings.
 
Originally Posted By: Mike_dup1
Found this explanation a while back but cannot recall where...

Quote:
Here are the differences between diesel engine oil and gasoline engine oil. In a modern diesel engine there is substantial exhaust soot contamination that the engine oil must contend with. Diesel oil is designed with much higher levels of detergency and dispersency to fight the soot contamination. Like ZDDP anti-wear chemistry, detergents are a surface active chemistry and compete directly for space on metal surfaces, such as the cam lobe and lifter face. So, in practice, the effective level of Zinc anti-wear is a bit lower than what we expect it to be based solely on chemical analysis. Additionally, the ZDDP that is generally used in diesel formulas is primary ZDDP (which activates at higher engine temperatures) since a diesel engine runs predominantly at operating temperature. In a gasoline engine, we must have both primary and secondary ZDDP (which activates at lower temperatures) since the engine will experience a significant number of cold starts. Also, the viscosity modifier polymers that are used in multi-viscosity engine oil to prevent viscosity loss at operating temperature (to protect the bearings) are different for diesel oil and gasoline oil. Diesels operate at essentially the same rpm all day long and need polymers that are shear stable to protect the bearings. Gasoline engines experience many large ranges of rpm during operation and require polymers that have both shear stability and thickening efficiency capability to protect the bearings.


Hm. What good does that do for the passenger diesel car/truck then?
 
What SAE does the explanation apply to?

I've noticed that today's HDEO are rated for SM. So that means good for most cars and motorcycles too.
 
SM is not a hard standard to meet any more.
wink.gif


The point is NOT that HDEOs won't work in cars and motorcycles. The point is that they are designed for conditions that are unique to HD engines. They may work just fine in other engines, but they might not be at their best.
 
Originally Posted By: Mike_dup1
Found this explanation a while back but cannot recall where...

Quote:
Here are the differences between diesel engine oil and gasoline engine oil. In a modern diesel engine there is substantial exhaust soot contamination that the engine oil must contend with. Diesel oil is designed with much higher levels of detergency and dispersants to fight the soot contamination. Like ZDDP anti-wear chemistry, detergents are a surface active chemistry and compete directly for space on metal surfaces, such as the cam lobe and lifter face. So, in practice, the effective level of Zinc anti-wear is a bit lower than what we expect it to be based solely on chemical analysis. Additionally, the ZDDP that is generally used in diesel formulas is primary ZDDP (which activates at higher engine temperatures) since a diesel engine runs predominantly at operating temperature. In a gasoline engine, we must have both primary and secondary ZDDP (which activates at lower temperatures) since the engine will experience a significant number of cold starts. Also, the viscosity modifier polymers that are used in multi-viscosity engine oil to prevent viscosity loss at operating temperature (to protect the bearings) are different for diesel oil and gasoline oil. Diesels operate at essentially the same rpm all day long and need polymers that are shear stable to protect the bearings. Gasoline engines experience many large ranges of rpm during operation and require polymers that have both shear stability and thickening efficiency capability to protect the bearings.
I have driven 18 wheelers, we do not stay at the same rpm all day long, we have gears that have say two ranges like 4 high and 4 low, 6high and 6 low depending on traffic and so on, we are constantly shifting on interstates, hills and so on, we do not stay at the same rpm, give me a break.
 
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