Who makes quality 5w-40 oil?

Pennzoil motor oil
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Originally Posted By: wemay
+1 to Garak and Shannow.


-1 to Garak and Shannow

"Dear Sir,

You should always follow the viscosity recommendations in your owner's manual. Please note that Rotella oils are not recommended for gasoline vehicles with catalytic converters.

Best Regards,

Shell Technical"

I then asked them how this can be since T6 is API SM rated for gas engines. Here's what they said:

"The API SM specification does not address the use of catalytic converters. The ILSAC GF-4 / GF-5 specifications restrict the use of certain anti-wear additive systems. These can shorten the life of the converter as the car ages and begins to use oil. Because of the higher levels of the ZDDP additives in Rotella oils, they do not meet the ILSAC specifications and cannot be recommended for use in vehicles with catalytic converters.

Regards,

Shell Technical"
 
In retrospect I was actually thinking of T5 because of it being 10w30 (allowed in my Hyundai), and the fact that Shell had advised me the same concerning T6. But my point would be mute due to the same additives in all Rotella oils. Touchet
 
SM DOES address cat con stuff...it has limits, and to be SM, which is current spark ignition specs...it has to meet those limits...

Based on the Shell response, Mobil 1 0W-40 doesn't address GF4-5 either...nor does PP in 40 grade.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Interestingly enough Hyundai does not specify synthetic oil so any API 5w30 will do. I would suggest a 5w30 syn' nonetheless, even a store brand, and I know of no "unacceptably poor quality" syn' oils.

You're probably right about store brands; although, I recently saw a Pep Boys brand that didn't pass the PQI VOAs.

Speaking of PQI VOAs, here is a great resource for comparison of 5w30 synthetics. The magnesium in Mobil 1 and Castrol Edge (especially Castrol Edge) scares me. Havoline can barely be considered synthetic with 13% NOACK. I wouldn't consider Lucas as synthetic with its 14.9% NOACK. 10.9% NOACK on Royal Purple is a shame considering what you are paying for. Check out the NOACK, TBN, phosphorus, moly, viscosity index, etc.:

http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html

Seeing this, I probably would pick up one of the Pennzoil Ultra, Pennzoil Platinum, Quaker State Ultimate, or Formula Shell. Pennzoil Ultra is obviously the premium choice and Formula Shell is the economical choice but the quality difference shouldn't be big, especially for nondemanding applications. It looks like SOPUS oils are the winners as far as VOAs are considered.
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
'Different strokes...'

http://www.pqiamerica.com/magnesium.htm

The problem with magnesium is that it has a much narrow spectrum of acids that in can neutralize in comparison to calcium. Alternatively speaking, it doesn't work as hard has calcium.

However, some Mg may be beneficial as it will not depleted as quickly as Ca because Mg doesn't wok as hard as Ca in neutralizing acids. Therefore, TBN stays higher with Mg while TAN increases more rapidly with Mg. Again, this (slower-decreasing TBN) can have some advantages, despite the more rapidly increasing TAN. Nevertheless, a large ratio of Mg seems to be a poor choice, as the TAN will increase too rapidly and have corrosive consequences with increased wear.

Mg vs. Ca was discussed before here.
 
In order to determine if a 0wXX oil is used instead of a 5wXX oil, you would need to have a cold crank simulator, and lower the temperature dramatically. Even if that was available, oxidation, fuel dilution, and shear would lead to a result that is difficult to measure accurately. Usually viscosity is tested at 40C and 100C, where the difference between the 2 oils would be even harder to measure.

In other words, if you used 0w40 where 5w40 was needed, nobody would really know, so long as the additive package was correct.
 
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Originally Posted By: wemay
+1 to Garak and Shannow.


-1 to Garak and Shannow

"Dear Sir,

You should always follow the viscosity recommendations in your owner's manual. Please note that Rotella oils are not recommended for gasoline vehicles with catalytic converters.

Best Regards,

Shell Technical"

Are we starting this baloney again? The vehicle in question has a manual that specifically allows a 5w-40 SM oil. Rotella 5w-40 meets that specification. Shell doesn't dictate Subaru's warranty terms and oil specifications. Subaru does. If they want an SE rated monograde, an A5/B5 5w30, conventional 5w30 in SM/GF-4 or better, or racing specific oil, that's totally up to them.

As it stands, it calls for an SM 5w-40, an SM/GF-4 or better 5w30, an A5/B5 5w30, and so forth. Rotella fits in with the first category, regardless of what some email jockey at Shell thinks.

If Shell is so interested in people not using Rotella in gassers, they should yank the SM spec, like is the case in Motorcraft HDEO and one of the Delvac Elite series. Until then, they are paying for a current gasoline specification and people are completely entitled to use it in an engine calling for SM 5w-40.

But hey, don't listen to us. Shannow obviously doesn't know squat about bearings and lubrication. I have zero experience using higher ZDDP oils in gasoline engines with catalytic converters in fleet use over millions of miles, and it's a hallucination that I've never changed a cat in my life.

If it were my vehicle, these are the specific options I'd be considering:

1) Mobil 1 5w30 or Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w30 or equivalent as A5/B5 SN/GF-5 synthetics;
2) Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 as the cheapest SM 5w-40 available to me;
3) any 5w30 SN/GF-5 conventional due to cost effectiveness and short OCI;
4) MaxLife 5w30 SN/GF-5 because it's Oil Changer's favourite product and also meets the specifications to the letter.

Oil Changer, I think you have selective hearing when it comes to speaking with oil companies' technical service people. Ashland, in your view, is a vile pit of lying vipers, and you wouldn't believe them if they told you the sky was blue. Yet, some email jockey, who's likely never seen a bottle of Rotella in person let alone changed oil in a vehicle, tells you that Rotella cannot be used in any gasoline engine with a catalytic converter, despite the fact that it has an SM approval and plenty of gasoline engines worldwide don't call for ILSAC ratings, and you act as if the guy swore this in front of a judge, holding his graduate degree diplomas in physics, chemistry, and engineering all the while.

I guess Doug, Shannow, and I (and anyone else using HDEO in a gasser) should all quit posting here for a while and get a real education. On the way, we should also pick up the engineers from Subaru (who called for the oil in the first place) and the Shell engineers, too, who obtained the SM certification. Clearly, we all need to be educated by Shell's email jockeys, bean counters, and lawyers.
 
Incidentally Garak, down here (at our neighborhood Walmart), a gallon of the Mobil Delvac ESP 5w40 is the most expensive of the aforementioned HDEO's at $26 a gallon, Chevron's Delo Full Synthetic being $19 per gallon in comparison. Just to throw in some perspective.
 
Last edited:
This is a first, then.
wink.gif
That's roughly what Delvac 1 costs up here, and we're usually close to double the price. Delo is hard to find, but can be priced reasonably, if one finds it. Rotella is usually over $40 a jug, sometimes around $30 on sale. Delvac 1 at retail is normally over $40 a jug here, but I get it for around $25.

In any case, up here, it's not the oil companies' fault so much as the retailers. Walmart Canada and Canadian Tire seem to think that 100% markup is appropriate on motor oil, and it's simply not. Until they figure that out, I'll buy my products from distributors like I did years ago.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
On the way, we should also pick up the engineers from Subaru (who called for the oil in the first place)....

Correction - that should be Hyundai, which is the make in question here, rather than Subaru.
 
Garak,

The point is this, while T6, an overall fantastic engine oil, can be used in the OP's application, it is far from being the optimal choice. As for just one example, Mobil 1 0W-40 would be a far better oil in the OP's application if the OP must use a 40 grade oil, which he doesn't.

You place yourself on a pedestal next to Doug and Shannow. To belong there, it would behoove you to stop the childish name calling and putdowns and focus on the technical aspects of lubrication engineering. Your own list does not include T6 as an oil you would use in the OP's application. So right now, you are on the same pedestal as "Shell's e-mail jockeys" since you both agree that T6 is not the wisest choice in this application.
 
Don't be twisting the issue. I didn't put myself on any pedestal. I pointed out two users that I know use such grades and have no paranoia against doing so. As for name calling, I have no idea what you're talking about. If you're speaking of email jockey, that's not name calling, that's a fact. Shell doesn't pay engineers to sit and answer emails all day.

It's easy to say that Mobil 1 0w-40 would be a far better oil choice. That may or may not be the case. It's a fantastic lube, no doubt. But, if we read the manual specs literally, Mobil 1 0w-40 isn't the correct viscosity. You and I both know that a 0w-40 should be a perfectly valid replacement for a 5w-40. But, they aren't calling explicitly for a 0w-40.

In these new DI engines, we don't know what's quite optimal yet, either. It might very well be a 40 grade, or an A5/B5 type synthetic, or simply a conventional changed at severe service 3750 mile intervals.

Rotella 5w-40 wasn't on my list solely because of cost. If all 5w-40s were the same price up here, I'd include them all, including the boutiques. As it stands, though, Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is around $25 a gallon here, whereas Rotella 5w-40 is well over $40 a gallon. So, it's not Shell's email people's concerns that would keep me from using it; it would be the terrible retail pricing we get here.

You've been here long enough to know when an oil company is using a CYA, and when an oil company is using a CYA beyond all common sense. When their email advice is in direct contradiction of the API certification on the bottle and the OEM's manual recommendation, that's CYA beyond all common sense.

To be blunt, it's none of their business. They sought, obtained, and paid for SM certification. The email people are cautioning customers not to use their SM 5w-40 in applications that formally call for an SM 5w-40? What's next? Are they going to say not to use Pennzoil dexos1 blend in General Motors vehicles? Incidentally, they seem to have no problem with using non-ILSAC Defy in vehicles with cats, as long as the warranty is gone and/or it meets the specs. Yet, meeting the specs isn't enough to use Rotella? Right. Absolute hogwash.
 
Garak,

I twist nothing. Facts:

1) You put yourself on a pedestal the moment you wrote, "Doug, Shannow, and I".

2) I don't need a Harvard degree in literature to pick up on the underlying contempt in your reply to my post.

3) SOPUS will stand behind their "e-mail jockeys" if the OP has an engine/emission related issue while using T6.

4) T6 is NOT the optimal choice in this application. Any bickering or bantering between us or others will not change that fact.

5) Yes, you should stop posting for a while. Start by re-reading my epic (not my words) ML thread so when you reference it again you can speak intelligently.
 
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
As for just one example, Mobil 1 0W-40 would be a far better oil in the OP's application if the OP must use a 40 grade oil, which he doesn't.


I don't get your logic (if I may call it that).

You state that the tech that you spoke to states Rotella can't be used in gas engines with catalytic converters, as it is SM, and not GF-4/5. (Keith, an other Shell tech in another link I posted says that it meets the gasser specs, and is good to go)

Mobil 1 0W-40 has neither GF-4, nor 5 either, as being a 40 it can't be Energy Conserving...it does, however meet the requirements of SM...for spark ignition engines...for catalyst equipped vehicles...

How does GF-4/5 have any relevance on T-6 being used in a gasser, when the specs that you are hanging your hat on are expressly not applicable to 40 grades...whether fleet oils, or Mobil 1 0W-40.

In order for T-6 to obtain, and be licenced to SM, it must have phosphorous levels below that allowed for SM, regardless of it's HDMO allowance of higher specs were it licenced down the C series of specs alone...same "S" specs as Mobil 1 0W-40.

This might help some. plus some revision on set theory when it comes to...

Quote:
For all automotive engines currently in use. Introduced in 2004, SM oils are designed to provide improved oxidation resistance, improved deposit protection, better wear protection, and better low-temperature performance over the life of the oil. Some SM oils may also meet the latest ILSAC
specification and/or qualify as Energy Conserving.


http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/engineoilguide_march2010.pdf

As a complete tangent, as it's clearly not your basis for rejecting T-6 as a Gasser oil (GF-4/5), ceck out he commentary on what CJ-4 oils are designed to do...catalyst protection...
 
The only point I have comparing T6 to Mobil 1 0W-40 within this thread is this:

In the extremely unlikely event the OP has an oil-related issue, SOPUS will NOT stand behind their product. Under the same technicality, an 0W-40 not being recommended by the manufacturer, Mobil 1 is the clear winner because:

1) The OP is risking warranty coverage with either product.

2) The use of Mobil 1 eliminates the whole additive/cat con debate.

T6 is NOT the ideal oil for this application, or any 40 grade oil for that matter. The OP does NOT need a 40 grade oil, he only thinks he does. Will T6 work? Of course, we already know it will. We also know that any 0W will work too. Other than that, I'm not hanging my hat on anything. I don't give a [censored] what he pours in the fill hole of his car so you are only arguing with yourself.
 
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
The only point I have comparing T6 to Mobil 1 0W-40 within this thread is this:

In the extremely unlikely event the OP has an oil-related issue, SOPUS will NOT stand behind their product. Under the same technicality, an 0W-40 not being recommended by the manufacturer, Mobil 1 is the clear winner because:

1) The OP is risking warranty coverage with either product.

2) The use of Mobil 1 eliminates the whole additive/cat con debate.

T6 is NOT the ideal oil for this application, or any 40 grade oil for that matter. The OP does NOT need a 40 grade oil, he only thinks he does. Will T6 work? Of course, we already know it will. We also know that any 0W will work too. Other than that, I'm not hanging my hat on anything. I don't give a [censored] what he pours in the fill hole of his car so you are only arguing with yourself.



Pure comedy gold.
 
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