Which way would you go in a Genset?

[Gary Allan]

Okay, I'm considering getting a genset in the 30kw size. The service will be full household load for 3-4 hours a day for 9 months of the year (5 day week) and 8 hours a day for the summer season. I can use unlimited interruptible power at about 1/3 the full time rate of electricity from the utility. The interruption is based on demand from the grid outside of the customer base distribution area. If South Jersey doesn't out pace their current generating capacity, they leave us running.

This works out to about 1100 hours a year excluding power outages (rare).

Would you get a natural gas/propane engine ..or a diesel? My thoughts are, personally, while diesel will probably offer better overall economy of operation (per kwh), the true hours spent on maintenance are rather high. Water separators, fuel filters, etc...let alone long term maintenance items (injectors, pumps, etc. if needed) are way expensive.

Do you think, in the kw range I'm looking at (25-30kw) that a diesel makes sense in the hour usage I'm talking about? I figure that I can keep any (otherwise) gasoline engine running indefinitely with simple maintenance making this "painless". The engine will spend more than enough time in the sweet spot wear-wise and won't be jerked on for 1/2 hour at a clip. The last thing I need is a career in diesel genset annoyance fixing (it's always the details).

It really is cheaper to generate your own power in my area. Managing the capital outlay and being able to "realize" the savings is the trick.

 

[alreadygone]

Can you get diesel delivered without road tax? Or will you have to transport yourself? If delivered, higher or lower than at pump?

Bob

 

[Gary Allan]

I imagine that I can just get it from my heating oil dealer (or so I reason

). Assume "YES". I would think much lower than at the pump (by at least $0.45+)

 

[Master ACiD]

the only real advantage of propane is the fuel its self does not spoil even after years of sitting there.. on the other hand the propane mixers, regulator etc goes bad just like anything else sence they have rubber parts. propane replacment parts can be quite costly, just like diesel replacment parts.
otherwise, propane costs more, takes up more space, has less btu per gallon, pound, whatever. not as good in cold climate etc.
diesel does not go bad as quick as gas does. a tank of diesel would be good for atleast a few years upwards to 15 years depending on ambient tempa, other factors, etc.
diesel offers the highest efficency of any generator fuel. its also the cheapest when you consider btu but like peopane it has issues when used at real cold temps. diesel has issues like water seperator, fuel filter, etc. but i have a feeling gary allan wouldnt mind having a look see at his filters and seperators once in a while.

i chose gas for my genset. i only run the thing is theres a power outage from a hurricane. it powers my whole house, twin hwh, twin central ac, twin central heat, twin elect range, well system, everything. and its only a 15kw 22 surge generac. in the few years i have had it its only racked up 480 hours. diesel or propane is hardly justifyable in my circumstance.

can i ask why such a large genset is being considered? do you live in a mansion?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:

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the only real advantage of propane is the fuel its self does not spoil even after years of sitting there.. on the other hand the propane mixers, regulator etc goes bad just like anything else sence they have rubber parts. propane replacment parts can be quite costly, just like diesel replacment parts.

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I would probably go with NG as a fuel. No delivery issues and PECO is also the gas supplier. This should make the transition painless since I should be able to lower my electric bill well in excess of any NG bill.

I haven't done an energy survey in awhile. We've changed some appliances. Our AC, those units that aren't already on interruptible service, run 24/7 for the entire cooling season. Last year it figured about $40-45/month per room unit. If I add the my daughter's apartment (over the garage) ..I imagine I'll lose some reserve ampacity. You may be right that a smaller unit will work ..but I'm not going air cooled no matter what.

..but I haven't rejected a diesel yet. I'm just figuring long term and just seeing very uncomfortable bills for repairs that I can't perform. While I may be paying more per month with an NG fuel engine, there's nothing special about the engine itself. It should be simple oil, filter, coolant, and plug changes. I've already figured out how get otherwise gasoline fueled engines to last a real long time without too much tinkering.

I understand how it would appear that I wouldn't mind paying attention to a diesel. Most of the stuff that people here see is "fun" for me. It's exploration and curiosity. Once that turns into a chore ...then it's another story. If clogged fuel filters is an issue with my boiler, I install dual filters ..or a really big one (or both). I don't want to be dealing with a dirty nozzle in my boiler in the middle of winter no matter how easy it is to change it.

If there's a dragon to slay ...I'll wield steel like Prince Valiant. With a puzzle or challenge ..the reward is built in. Being a serf to the machine is just not in my genes though. I guess that I'm basically lazy ..and will go to great lengths to continue to be that way. My former coworkers always thought that I spent more time avoiding work ..than the work itself. This was true only until I cracked the nut. Naturally, when I found the slick/trick way to allow my butt to sit longer in the control room, they quickly adopted the technique.

Those who know and can ...do. Those who know and cannot ..teach, supervise, instruct, or design their way around it.

 

[Shannow]

I'd go with a simple diesel, and make biodiesel from waste, or use WVO.

Cool the thing with a great big insulated tank full of water, and run the water for your hot water service though the tank

 

[Shannow]

Oh, and add an absorption chiller for the warmer months.

Piped NG would be OK 'though.

 

[Gary Allan]

Oh, to my limits, I'll be using this to produce domestic hot water and heat. I don't know how much room I'll have for storage. Unfortunately, my house is steam heated. If it was a recirculating hot water, I'd just run the pump whenever the thing was operating. I'd add loops even. There's also the fact that it's only in use for about 3 hours in the cooler months and 8 hours in the 3 warmer months. Kinda backwards for maximum advantage ..but you can't have everything.

I wonder if I can plumb the exhaust into the boiler's fire box to produce my steam

I imagine that it wouldn't be too complicated. I guess I'd need to buy a few more CO meters. That and a few cheap UPS's to keep the computers booted and some device's clocks accurate.

The sad part about it is that everyone is paying 3X the rate of on demand power no matter when they use it. Most utilities use "time of day" metering. You pay low when demand is low. You pay premium in high demand time. Here you pay premium whether demand is high or low if you want access to it 24/7/365. Only those who are willing to take there devices out of service for that time period get the break for the rest of the majority of the clock.

Unless making fuel from WVO is fun (aside from developing the process system) ...hmmm....well, that just doesn't have that "Gary" ring to it.

Some people are thrilled with working hard to save a buck. I electively work hard to save working hard out of obligation. Gotta stay poised for those dragons that appear from time to time.

Where would we be if that knuckle dragger didn't figure out how to roll that large stone for the first time?

 

[Master ACiD]

now youre getting somewhere gary!
i had thought about using the exhaust heat to boil water for home heating and water heating for hot showers. nothing can heat water quicker than the 1300 degree exhaust of a stationary generator!

the problem i had was how to regulate the temparture.

have a look at a small yanmar 4 cyl diesel genset used for sailboats. they are watercooled and really look exactly like a vw diesel engine. id bet they would be ultra reliable. add a radiator and you could have a home genset for a good price.

 

[oilyriser]

How much more can you fight solar gain, and seal up air leaks? One guy put shade cloth over his entire house, but he was single at the time.

 

[Master ACiD]

good point. home depot and lowes sell 4x8 sheets of 2 inch thick styrofoam for under $20. if you cut out a block of it to fit in a window (prefer a east or west window) styrofoam has an incredible insulative value.
think about a piping hot cup of coffee. that coffee is scalding hot yet a 1/16th inch thick piece of styrofoam keeps it from burning you. imagine what 2 inches can do for a hosehold window.
i did this to half the windows in my house and dropped the electric bill by $25 a month.

 

[handyman]

From what I browsed out on the web a lot of people like slow rpm diesel generators to create their own power. I believe there is a whole slow rpm diesel generator sub culture out there

That might be the way to go

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:

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the problem i had was how to regulate the temparture.

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It's easy with steam heat. 212F is the just about all it gets too ..plus a few btu's per liter. You just open a window if it gets too hot ..and hope your make up water pump keeps up.

Quote:

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have a look at a small yanmar 4 cyl diesel genset used for sailboats. they are watercooled and really look exactly like a vw diesel engine. id bet they would be ultra reliable. add a radiator and you could have a home genset for a good price.

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They do look like a REAL continuous duty gen set in the range that I need. Not too bad on the total weight either. Thanks for the lead..

 

[JHZR2]

My fiancee is from the USVI - their power goes out all the time.

They have LPG for cooking and water heating, and their gensets could be run on diesel or gasoline.

Their first was gasoline... bad mistake. EVERYONE runs diesels these days for the significant improvement in operating efficiency.

Go diesel, run it from your heating oil tank.

JMH

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:

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How much more can you fight solar gain, and seal up air leaks? One guy put shade cloth over his entire house, but he was single at the time.

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Oh, sure, there's work to be done there. The massive upramp in heating oil and electric costs are going to way outstrip any passive savings initiative. I'm already jumping through hoops saving massive costs on electricity using interruptible service for the big AC unit and the clothes dryer. We could use a few new windows here and there ..but we're looking at very low gains on a cost profile that's just climbing way wild over a short time span. Right now, I've got about $420/month (12month) average for energy at today's prices AT the unique way that I already operate.

One thing that I've learned in this house is that conservation has to be engineered in. It was hopeless to get people to turn off lights ..so, I installed compact florescents. Our house is like a Xmas tree while most of the block is pitch black.

You can't get people to lock doors ..so you employ the use of goofy ..but powerful and paranoid large dog with BIG JAWS to deter those who would invade your inner sanctum. An additional small dog is included as an exiter circuit element to the package. Kinda like a pilot guard dog.

Your trump cards have to be powerful and overbearing in their effectiveness. You're fighting human nature of those influenced heavily by a mother who was raised in the burbs.

 

[Master ACiD]

when i was at a national forest camping for the weekend i noticed all the lights has 15 minute timers. you had to press the button every 15 mins to keep the light going.
maybe you could install such timers in place of standard light switches.
if they dont want to turn the lights off, turn them off for them!

let me know if you are really considering the yanmar diesel option. i bet you could pick up a slightly used one for half of new. and new they are cheap enough as it is.

 

[Gary Allan]

I'll be in touch when I REALLY ready to do it. There's lots of pre-purchase research to be done on "the rest of the story". I hate half baked plans that need too much tweaking after you thought that you were done.

Slaying the dragon is much easier than being in a never ending story.

The timer thing is an idea.

 

[alreadygone]

I'd also look at Westerbeke marine diesel genset.

Bob

 

[oilyriser]

What's the price of power there? I estimated if you pay $2.20/gal for heating oil, and a genset is 30% efficient, it'll cost $0.17 per kw-hr just for fuel. I dunno if you'll be able to use all the waste heat that comes from it.

With Interruptible Power, are you allowed to have two sets of a/c's, one on the regular meter, and the other on Interruptible? Or a transfer switch?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:

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What's the price of power there? I estimated if you pay $2.20/gal for heating oil, and a genset is 30% efficient, it'll cost $0.17 per kw-hr just for fuel. I dunno if you'll be able to use all the waste heat that comes from it.

With Interruptible Power, are you allowed to have two sets of a/c's, one on the regular meter, and the other on Interruptible? Or a transfer switch?

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I can't necessarily follow your path from the price of #2 ..the consumption of the genset (without knowing demand) and arriving at a $/kwh ..but ...

Even if that's true (your figures how they work out) it's not that much of an issue since it allows ALL of my house to run when the interruptible service is off line.

The interruptible service is a separate meter pan ...wired to a separate panel. Anything wired to the panel will have power for 21hours a day for 9 months ..and 16 hours a day for 3 months. It gets a whopping 65+% discount off of the regular "on demand" meter rate.

The setup has a drop out relay sandwiched between the meter and the meter pan.

Now the total savings, which I'm still evaluating, is that I can SAVE money by using cheap electric power for heat ..but that heat won't be available from 4pm - 7pm during the winter months (within the 9 month season for this restriction on power). The problem I then have do deal with is warming an idle boiler from cold (or have its domestic water thermostat set to keep it warm) to producing usable heat. Steam is only efficient when your at a steady state of cold. The stuff boils ..energizes the radiators ..the heat migrates to the thermostat..etc..etc. ..and you get in a cycle of, fairy economical, heating. Now when the transitional months occur ...and your cycling gets to broad in frequency, then you're going to be on way too long ..pushing way too much heat to get the heat to the thermostat ..way overshooting the setpoint ...longer idle times until the thermostat calls for heat ..and so on.

If the exhaust could be scrubbed through the boiler (it should handle the cfm), this would not be an issue.

I'm sure that there will be considerable fine tuning of this ..if it works. Ultimately, the system won't need 3 hours of 1300F exhaust to produce the heat needed, even though it's well below the btu's that the same #2 produces in the boiler at atmospheric combustion. I'm not sure for #2 ..but the heavier fuels were in excess of 2500F, IIRC ..hence the evolution in oil fired boilers to FGR (flue gas recirculation). That's where your NOX takes off (although is present , IIRC, just above the combustion temp of NG).


Sure, I could install a transfer switch ...but sooner or later the utility would come knocking at my door telling me to pay up or pay up more. Unless I have separate and equal devices wired to each panel ..I'm committing fraud.

It does pay for someone with central air to have two compressors ..with the "on demand" one being cut out when cheap power was available. The blower would have to be run on the expensive stuff ..unless you can fit another air handler inside the house.

You could also have two outlets right next to each other ..and swap as needed. Can you see how much of a "clean RIG" that would be

Nope. If I'm going to "stick it to the man" ...I've got to do it totally above board.

Oddly, I can't put my hands on one of my utility bills. The soak you, especially in PECO country, for make believe charges that are totally out of whack with what it should cost to deliver power.

It goes something like this:
Service charge for the meter/account: $35
Demand capacity charge: 5.95
Stranded asset charge (or words to those effect): 9.95

Then they charge you for the kwh at the prevailing rate that the PUC has allowed.

When alternative power companies (brokers, actually) used to call to get me to switch ..I laughed when they said that they could save me around $10/month. More energy leaks from my house (figuratively speaking) that they could ever make a real difference in with the fractional $0.01 that they were talking.

Basically, they were charging a fortune for power. So when retail wheeling came into being, they made up lies to get the PUC to allow them to get exactly the same money for the same delivered power.

We're paying for Limerick Nuke Plant. $4 billion. It will never pay for itself in terms of what could have been achieved in some other manner. It's over 30 years old and has only cost more to operate as years have passed. I predict that it will cost more than that when it is ultimately decommissioned. They assure that the residual costs are fairytaled to be higher then operating costs.

I'm pretty sure that "Variable distribution" is the rate for interruptible service.

CURRENT CHARACTERISTICS. Standard single-phase secondary service.
MONTHLY RATE TABLE.
FIXED DISTRIBUTION SERVICE CHARGE. $5.18
METERING AND BILLING CREDITS A customer receiving Advanced Meter Services from a AMSP other than the Company
will receive a credit on the Fixed Distribution Service Charge equal to the Total Metering Credit set forth for this Base Rate in
Appendix B to the Joint Petition for Full Settlement. A customer receiving Consolidated EGS Billing will receive a credit on
the Fixed Distribution Service Charge equal to the Billing and Collection Credit set forth for this Base Rate in Appendix B to
the Joint Petition for Full Settlement.
VARIABLE DISTRIBUTION SERVICE CHARGE:
SUMMER MONTHS. (June through September)
4.76¢ per kWh for the first 500 kWh per dwelling unit (I)
5.52¢ per kWh for additional kWh. (I)
WINTER MONTHS. (October through May)
4.76¢ per kWh (I)
COMPETITIVE TRANSITION CHARGE:
SUMMER MONTHS. (June through September)
3.03¢ per kWh for the first 500 kWh per dwelling unit (I)
3.52¢ per kWh for additional kWh. (I)
WINTER MONTHS. (October through May)
3.03¢ per kWh (I)
ENERGY AND CAPACITY CHARGE:
Standard Pricing Option-The following Energy and Capacity Charges, which are not applicable to a customer who obtains Competitive
Energy Supply, will apply to the customer who received Default PLR Service as of the effective date of this tariff, and continues to
receive this service, or is a customer who returns to Default PLR Service and receives this service for a minimum period of twelve
months or is a customer on the Company’s Monthly Pricing Option and wants to return to the Standard Pricing Option and meets
certain conditions described in the Monthly Pricing Option. The requirement for a minimum period of 12 months is not applicable
unless the Monthly Pricing Option has been implemented by the Company. A customer returning from Competitive Default
Service will not be subject to the minimum twelve month stay provision.
SUMMER MONTHS. (June through September)
6.49¢ per kWh for the first 500 kWh per dwelling unit (I)
7.26¢ per kWh for additional kWh. (I)
WINTER MONTHS. (October through May)
6.49¢ per kWh (I)
Monthly Pricing Option-Upon 60 days prior written notice to the PaPUC, the Company may implement this Monthly
Pricing Option, which allows customers who return to Default PLR Service to elect their service on a monthly basis. The following
Energy and Capacity Charges apply to the Monthly Pricing Option.

more

TRANSMISSION SERVICE FOR CUSTOMERS RECEIVING DEFAULT PLR SERVICE: unless such a customer is
able to obtain transmission service on its own, PECO Energy will provide transmission service, and will impose
charges on such a customer for such transmission service.
MINIMUM CHARGE: The minimum charge per month will be the Fixed Distribution Service Charge.

I guess if you run your own wires to the grid they won't charge you for transmission

Anyone capable of filtering through this to glean anything?? Now you may understand what we're up against. You can't just ask, "How much do you pay for power?".

Peco: "Well, first I think we need to define "pay for power" before we could comment"