Which Synthetics use group IV base stock?

[RDY4WAR]

There's several API oils that contain some PAO to some degree, and of course a lot of boutique options. Note though that outside of extreme cold starts or extreme heat (300+*F), there's no real world benefit to use group IV PAO over group III / GTL. In fact, for the typical conditions seen by a daily driver, a group III base oil will have better additive response, better solubility, and a higher pressure-viscosity coefficient (to an extent) while being far cheaper.

It's reasonable for something like M1 EP 0w-20 to have "up to 70%" PAO as that's an oil that'll be common in very cold climates. For the other grades, keeping that high concentration would just cause higher production cost with no benefits to the end user.

 

[4WD]

Is the pao's only/main purpose to give the oil a super low pouring point?

Probably a bit more oxidation stability

 

[OVERKILL]

Is the pao's only/main purpose to give the oil a super low pouring point?

Improves cold temp performance and oxidation resistance.

 

[tolian21]

It's reasonable for something like M1 EP 0w-20 to have "up to 70%" PAO as that's an oil that'll be common in very cold climates. For the other grades, keeping that high concentration would just cause higher production cost with no benefits to the end user.

If this oil really has 70% PAO, Mobil must be at loss selling it for $27 at WM. Maybe it's subsidized by other grades they sell.

 

[blufeb95]

If this oil really has 70% PAO, Mobil must be at loss selling it for $27 at WM. Maybe it's subsidized by other grades they sell.

How much does raw PAO actually cost to make. seeing how XOM makes it themselves it's probably pretty cheap to make compared to botique oil companies that have to purchase their base oils from XOM and then pay for additives and still have to make a profit while selling a much lower volume.

 

[tolian21]

The numbers I’ve seen is that PAO is 3-4 times more expensive than group3 base

 

[blufeb95]

The numbers I’ve seen is that PAO is 3-4 times more expensive than group3 base

Yeah, but how little does it cost XOM to actually make either.

 

[OVERKILL]

The numbers I’ve seen is that PAO is 3-4 times more expensive than group3 base

Sure, but Mobil is one of the largest (I believe 2nd largest) producers of PAO in the world. Compared to somebody buying it on the market it costs Mobil significantly less. I'm sure they are still making a healthy profit on their products that contain PAO, given they also co-own the additive company with Shell. These big boys are very vertically integrated.

 

[blufeb95]

Sure, but Mobil is one of the largest (I believe 2nd largest) producers of PAO in the world. Compared to somebody buying it on the market it costs Mobil significantly less. I'm sure they are still making a healthy profit on their products that contain PAO, given they also co-own the additive company with Shell. These big boys are very vertically integrated.

Considering that Supertech FS is less than $15 for 5qts on the shelf and Walmart has to pay Warren to Blend it, and Warren has to buy their GTP III or GTL basestocks from XOM and also additives, so since Warren has to make a profit and XOM would make a profit on the sale of base oils, it seems to me that if they're getting all their base oils and additives more or less at costs and they do their own blending there's gotta be a pretty good amount of fluff in the final shelf price at $22-25.

 

[tolian21]

Sure, but Mobil is one of the largest (I believe 2nd largest) producers of PAO in the world. Compared to somebody buying it on the market it costs Mobil significantly less. I'm sure they are still making a healthy profit on their products that contain PAO, given they also co-own the additive company with Shell. These big boys are very vertically integrated.

I agree. Its just interesting that they sell 5w-30 EP with less PAO (20-30%?) for the same price as 0w-20 EP. That's why I am thinking their profit is smaller for 0w-20 EP.

 

[OVERKILL]

I agree. Its just interesting that they sell 5w-30 EP with less PAO (20-30%?) for the same price as 0w-20 EP. That's why I am thinking their profit is smaller for 0w-20 EP.

Might be, but my point is that assuming they still make money on every product, regardless of the amount of PAO, is a pretty safe bet. I assume the high PAO versions are less profitable as well, but in the big scheme of things I doubt that's of any consequence. The products are blended to meet a given suite of performance requirements/expectations, which I assume is the reason for the very varied amount of PAO used.

 

[4WD]

I agree. Its just interesting that they sell 5w-30 EP with less PAO (20-30%?) for the same price as 0w-20 EP. That's why I am thinking their profit is smaller for 0w-20 EP.

Yes, think it would be … and I think the bargain brands can put more GII+ in 5w30 “synthetic“

 

[4WD]

Considering that Supertech FS is less than $15 for 5qts on the shelf and Walmart has to pay Warren to Blend it, and Warren has to buy their GTP III or GTL basestocks from XOM and also additives, so since Warren has to make a profit and XOM would make a profit on the sale of base oils, it seems to me that if they're getting all their base oils and additives more or less at costs and they do their own blending there's gotta be a pretty good amount of fluff in the final shelf price at $22-25.

You don’t think Warren uses the same base stock do you … why do they purchase so much EHC

 

[4WD]

Sure, but Mobil is one of the largest (I believe 2nd largest) producers of PAO in the world. Compared to somebody buying it on the market it costs Mobil significantly less. I'm sure they are still making a healthy profit on their products that contain PAO, given they also co-own the additive company with Shell. These big boys are very vertically integrated.

They also process their own crude in a petrochemical stack of various products from the same barrel
Can pick and choose the sweet stuff too …

 

[OVERKILL]

They also process their own crude in a petrochemical stack of various products from the same barrel
Can pick and choose the sweet stuff too …

Good point!

 

[tolian21]

Is SDS the only source for mobil1 ep 0w-20 to be 60-70% PAO? Does amsoil provide this in their SDS?
Sorry, I am still learning

 

[OVERKILL]

Is SDS the only source for mobil1 ep 0w-20 to be 60-70% PAO? Does amsoil provide this in their SDS?
Sorry, I am still learning

Only some of the manufacturers call out base oil ranges in the SDS sheets. Some of them are EXTREMELY broad, so less of a "hint" than what Mobil provides with theirs. And yes, no blender/manufacturer divulges formula information. We are lucky that Mobil continues to provide the detail level that they do.

 

[tolian21]

Only some of the manufacturers call out base oil ranges in the SDS sheets. Some of them are EXTREMELY broad, so less of a "hint" than what Mobil provides with theirs. And yes, no blender/manufacturer divulges formula information. We are lucky that Mobil continues to provide the detail level that they do.

makes sense. I am also reading that some people in oil-club russian equivalent of BITOG, are doing spectrum analysis (not sure if I have the right technical name) to detect presence of PAO vs group3.

 

[benjy]

ALL oils are blended to a price point + spec using only enough PAO + or Ester oil as needed. REAL synthetics ARE superior for sure BUT overkill in most applications, but using them is your choice if you dont mind the $$$

 

[Krieg]

ALL oils are blended to a price point + spec using only enough PAO + or Ester oil as needed. REAL synthetics ARE superior for sure BUT overkill in most applications, but using them is your choice if you dont mind the $$$

What are real synthetics?