Which station would you buy gas from?

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Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: stchman

So do you just buy the cheapest oil to put in your car? Isn't oil just oil too? How about filters, filters are just filters too.


Millions do without incident. And by cheapest I mean they go to the Quickee Lube and put the cheapest whatever in. They go to Bobs Auto and he does the same. Same with Filters. How many billions of "Fram OCODs" have graced engines in the last 50-70 years? How many failures?

Look at fleet vehicles too - cheapest oil, cheapest filter, etc. How many of them lead long hard lives? (Hint: many)

Sure I use Pennzoil Platinum and a Fram Ultra. Why? Cause I tow hard in the truck and drive the car a little hard. They both have 2 turbos. I figure it's a little insurance for the minuscule addition in cost. Previous vehicles got whatever and made it to long lives.

There's also a huge difference in a fluid that has to last 5-10k lubricating and one that simply gets exploded into energy and then gone.

I've probably got a million miles on various vehicles using the cheapest swill gas I can find of the specified octane. None have had any fuel system repairs and almost all went 100k+. I got tired of them before they gave me issues.

If you think there's a meaningful difference by all means keep at it. But there isn't any.


I'm with you. The majority of cars on the road are running the cheapest oil and oil filters available and how any engine failures are occuring. I don't believe it is many. Same with gasoline. That said, apparently the marketing department is still getting to you, running a higher end oil and filter. I will admit, I am too.....lol. Partly because I am on this site....the BITGOers are getting to me.
 
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Originally Posted By: raytseng
Yea, my point however, was look at where you are posting.
Of all the places where the smallest hairs related to oil are to be split, this is the place.

Perhaps if you posted in some consumerreports forum, then you'd have a choir of consensus that it doesn't matter as long as it meets the spec.

BITOG is the specific area where the differences are laid out.
So even if it maybe true, it's a bad analogy to use to try to make your point... for this audience.

Here I'll make another analogy about your analogy.

It's like saying all cellphones are the same, they all make calls, they all surf the web; they all play music. If you're posting in a generic forum maybe that's a fine analogy to make about commodized items.

But if you were posting in an android developer forum they'll say that's a inaccurate analogy to use to push that point, as all they talk about is the differences and fine details.


Sounds like you don't want any dissention? Move on....nothing to see here....
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Yea, my point however, was look at where you are posting.
Of all the places where the smallest hairs related to oil are to be split, this is the place.

Perhaps if you posted in some consumerreports forum, then you'd have a choir of consensus that it doesn't matter as long as it meets the spec.

BITOG is the specific area where the differences are laid out.
So even if it maybe true, it's a bad analogy to use to try to make your point... for this audience.

Here I'll make another analogy about your analogy.

It's like saying all cellphones are the same, they all make calls, they all surf the web; they all play music. If you're posting in a generic forum maybe that's a fine analogy to make about commodized items.

But if you were posting in an android developer forum they'll say that's a inaccurate analogy to use to push that point, as all they talk about is the differences and fine details.


Sounds like you don't want any dissention? Move on....nothing to see here....


Not sure where you read that, I'm not asking people to conform, I want people to make good arguments.

If anything by pointing out the flaws, I'm encouraging debate. I didn't attack anyone personally, I attacked the logic and the words.

If you just want an echo chamber where all you get is people agreeing with you, there's places for that too (...points to firearms subforum for example).

The position that gas is a commodity is fine, it's just the analogy that it's "just like motor oil" is poor support...given this site has not conceded that point. So using that analogy completely undermines the initial position rather then supporting it.
 
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Originally Posted By: raytseng
Yea, my point however, was look at where you are posting.
Of all the places where the smallest hairs related to oil are to be split, this is the place.

Perhaps if you posted in some consumerreports forum, then you'd have a choir of consensus that it doesn't matter as long as it meets the spec.

BITOG is the specific area where the differences are laid out.
So even if it maybe true, it's a bad analogy to use to try to make your point... for this audience.


OK, so for this audience please explain how different brands of oils or filters will affect the longevity of the engine. How many more miles can you expect from using synthetic as compared to conventional? How using one filter will make a measurable difference over another? And using marketing material does not count.

Discussing different additive levels, base oils, MRV, CC etc. does not change the fact that motor oil is a commodity. Yes it's fun especially if there is a good technical discussion going and not the constant regurgitation of the marketing claims. And I'm sure that some of the discussion can help and steer people in the right direction for some extreme usage conditions.
However, many people seem to think that their econobox grocery getter is something special and their daily commute is a Paris-Dakar race, so they want to find a magic oil elixir, but what they miss is that there is no perfect oil. Heck, there is even a sticky in the PCMO section that plainly explains this, but of course almost nobody bothers to read it.

The best ones that always crack me up are the posts of some 15 year old beaters, that were just bought and the very first thing the new owner asks is for the best oil. LOL
 
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Yea, my point however, was look at where you are posting.
Of all the places where the smallest hairs related to oil are to be split, this is the place.

Perhaps if you posted in some consumerreports forum, then you'd have a choir of consensus that it doesn't matter as long as it meets the spec.

BITOG is the specific area where the differences are laid out.
So even if it maybe true, it's a bad analogy to use to try to make your point... for this audience.

Here I'll make another analogy about your analogy.

It's like saying all cellphones are the same, they all make calls, they all surf the web; they all play music. If you're posting in a generic forum maybe that's a fine analogy to make about commodized items.

But if you were posting in an android developer forum they'll say that's a inaccurate analogy to use to push that point, as all they talk about is the differences and fine details.


Sounds like you don't want any dissention? Move on....nothing to see here....


Not sure where you read that, I'm not asking people to conform, I want people to make good arguments.

If anything by pointing out the flaws, I'm encouraging debate. I didn't attack anyone personally, I attacked the logic and the words.

If you just want an echo chamber where all you get is people agreeing with you, there's places for that too (...points to firearms subforum for example).

The position that gas is a commodity is fine, it's just the analogy that it's "just like motor oil" is poor support...given this site has not conceded that point. So using that analogy completely undermines the initial position rather then supporting it.


Well as you stated, you felt BITOG is not the place to make comments that oil is a commodity based on the fact that this "is an oil site" and not some generic car maintenance site. You mentioned "splitting hairs" and that is true. One the other hand, I think this site does need someone that can bring some common sense to it too. Seems like many posters are way over the top as far as car maintenance is concerned. I mean, here we are arguing where our gasoline should be purchased. Its absurd. I have drive now for 40 years and only once can I point to bad gas. It ended up the tank was leaking water into it and I got some of it. Other than that, gas has been just gas.
 
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
Originally Posted By: whip
Top Tier is a marketing scam. Buy the cheapest or easiest to get and carry on.

That's simply untrue.

Sure it is. To be top tier, a company submits a sample and pays for the right to use the top tier brand. Just because brand C doesn't pay the fee, doesn't mean it's an inferior fuel. It just means they didn't pay the fee.

Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: whip
Top Tier is a marketing scam. Buy the cheapest or easiest to get and carry on.


So do you just buy the cheapest oil to put in your car? Isn't oil just oil too? How about filters, filters are just filters too.

I don't buy one brand of oil because it has a different sticker. I don't use synthetic because there's no advantage to me. There's dozens of oil that I'll buy if it's on sale when I need oil.

Originally Posted By: raytseng
It's like saying all cellphones are the same, they all make calls, they all surf the web; they all play music. If you're posting in a generic forum maybe that's a fine analogy to make about commodized item.

That would be a great analogy if one company made all the phones and sold them under different names. Phones have different operating systems and features. Gas is all the same.
 
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: whip
Top Tier is a marketing scam. Buy the cheapest or easiest to get and carry on.


So do you just buy the cheapest oil to put in your car? Isn't oil just oil too? How about filters, filters are just filters too.



Cheapest name brand oil that meets API specifications.
Do it all day long and 2X on Sunday.
Some of my cheapest oil includes the following name brands: Phillips, Chevron, Wolfs Head, Peak, Mobil, Quaker State, Castrol, and Citgo, to name most if not all day long. Filters are what ever name brand is on sale at any given point.
There is a reason that there are specifications, to set a standard for quality.
Either that standard is valid or it isn't.
I choose not to sit and scratch my butt and second guess experts with equipment and testing protocols.
I embrace the standard.
Cars don't seem to mind. The last car I sold at 275K is still going strong at over 300K on the "cheapest oil."
 
Said it before and I'll say it again, a clean high volume gas station is more important than any other factor.
If a station is high volume, it will have the freshest fuel and 99.9% of the time will be the price leader.
Just like a restaurant, the places with a lot of traffic are generally the best. A business cannot afford to put out poor quality fuel and stay in business very long.
Just because a business does not have the footprint, resources, or desire to "pay to play" with the "Top Tier" gang, does not mean that their product is inferior. Besides, what assurances, checks and balances are there to insure that if one goes in a "Top Tier" station, they are going to get "Top Tier" fuel? Does TT have minions going around to spot check and test the fuel at the pump? I doubt it.
It comes down to the Jobber that services the stations. The one that I am familiar with (and I am sure that they are not the only one) services a wide array of brands including Marathon (non TT) and Shell and BP (TT,) The detergent is added at the terminal, but where is the QC at? If driver Joe Sixpack is out on his daily excursion and his last stop of the day is the Shell station, and he does not have enough product with the TT blessed additive in it, but he has an adequate supply of fuel spec'd to Marathon on his tanker, how is that not going to go in the Shell tank? Joe wants to go home and the jobber is not going to assume the extra cost of another trip to the terminal when it can be avoided.
When one talks about the amount of additional additive, it really is miniscule. If there is a plethora of TT stations available in your area and it is the same price, buying there is a no brainer. In my area, it is a 12.5 mile drive each way to a TT station with the exception of a low volume, somewhat unkempt BP station that is among the high price leaders. I filled up at Kroger and saved over $12.00 on a tank on Monday. It isn't Top tier, but I know that it came from a clean, high volume station and that it was $.79 cents/gallon cheaper. That difference buys a lot of Techron or the PEA of your choice.
Top Tier may be an initiative from auto manufacturers to improve engine performance. However, on the street, it is used as a marketing gimmick to differentiate brands of a commodity. Some vendors feel the need to conform, some don't. However, at the end of the day it is not in the long term best interest of those vendors that do not participate to market poor quality fuel. If they do, the marketplace will take care of the bottom feeders over time.
"Top Tier" fuel and "Dexos" licensing for oil. What gets licensed next?
 
Usually a warehouse club if I have the option. Otherwise a high-volume station. Followed by whatever's convenient when really necessary.
 
Originally Posted By: Tdbo
..... The detergent is added at the terminal, but where is the QC at? If driver Joe Sixpack is out on his daily excursion and his last stop of the day is the Shell station, and he does not have enough product with the TT blessed additive in it, but he has an adequate supply of fuel spec'd to Marathon on his tanker, how is that not going to go in the Shell tank? Joe wants to go home and the jobber is not going to assume the extra cost of another trip to the terminal when it can be avoided. ...


The QC is that the majors can, and do, sample the tanks at branded stations to determine that it is, in fact, their branded motor fuel products being pumped from the tanks.

Using shell as an example, if I were a shell branded station, but not my own jobber, I would be outraged if my jobber put non shell gas in my tanks after I paid for it and were charging my customers a premium for it. It would be a legal matter, and a pretty serious one. The majors can, and do, revoke franchises for things like this, if they catch it.

Modern motor fuels store extremely well in UST's. The notion that there is any difference between fuel in the tanks for a few days or weeks is silly. Most cars couldn't tell the difference if it had been in the tanks far longer than that.
 
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: Tdbo
..... The detergent is added at the terminal, but where is the QC at? If driver Joe Sixpack is out on his daily excursion and his last stop of the day is the Shell station, and he does not have enough product with the TT blessed additive in it, but he has an adequate supply of fuel spec'd to Marathon on his tanker, how is that not going to go in the Shell tank? Joe wants to go home and the jobber is not going to assume the extra cost of another trip to the terminal when it can be avoided. ...


The QC is that the majors can, and do, sample the tanks at branded stations to determine that it is, in fact, their branded motor fuel products being pumped from the tanks.

Using shell as an example, if I were a shell branded station, but not my own jobber, I would be outraged if my jobber put non shell gas in my tanks after I paid for it and were charging my customers a premium for it. It would be a legal matter, and a pretty serious one. The majors can, and do, revoke franchises for things like this, if they catch it.

Modern motor fuels store extremely well in UST's. The notion that there is any difference between fuel in the tanks for a few days or weeks is silly. Most cars couldn't tell the difference if it had been in the tanks far longer than that.




That is interesting. I figured that they monitored deliveries from the terminal but wasn't sure that they actually tested from the pump.
I'll ask this since you are in the business.
Utilizing my scenario, assuming that the Shell tank gets filled with fuel with the proper additive blend, what happens to the other blended fuel?
If there is not a Marathon retailer that needs it at that point, does it get sold to an independent?
 
I haven't any experience in the major branded business since the early 90's. But the majors would randomly test samples from the UST's back then to make sure the fuel had their additive markers, and I have no reason to think they would not do it now. They may not, but it wouldn't make sense to me for them not to.

Gasoline is a commodity - all that sets it apart is the additive package - thus, that package was real important. I see no reason why it would be any less important now.

I don't know why they would load fuel on the truck that they didn't already have an order for, unless the price was increasing and they wanted to load as much as they could cheap, so it could be sold the next day at the new rack price.
 
Additionally, as I've mentioned elsewhere, head office checks that the quantities of fuel they bought from them corresponds to the quantities they sold to the public. If they're selling more than they're buying, there's an issue.
 
These discussions are interesting, and OEM recommendations as well, but there are a lot of folks across the country that don't have a TT station within any reasonable distance from them. I realize that the majority of people do live in or near major metro areas, but the OEM's forget that a lot of their customers are no where near a TT fuel station. But then, these are same OEM's who build pickups with wild claims about what they will do and have some of the wildest commercials showing the pickup doing extremes of towing, hauling, etc, but when one reads the manual you find out that if you do anything more than use the pickup as basic transportation, it is considered severe service.
 
For my IS with known DI intake valve deposit issue, shell and chevron only (PEA / Nitrogen) and 91.

For all my other cars, cheapest no name brand 87.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
For my IS with known DI intake valve deposit issue, shell and chevron only (PEA / Nitrogen) and 91.


With DI you do realize that is a waste as the gas never touches the valves, right?
 
SHELL when on long road trips, lot's of SHELL stations along the Freeways, ARCO here at home, just around the corner and high volume station
thumbsup2.gif
 
Interesting filters that are shown on the GasBuddy app when checked on the computer vs on my smart phone. The phone app doesn't show TT stations as such, and there is no setting to filter for TT stations.

Having never really used the app on the computer, it is nice to know there is a way to find TT stations if need be.
 
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