Which 5W-40, if any, for Audi?

[moribundman]

Like Audi Junkie said, Valvoline Synpower 5w30 is erroneously on that list. It doesn't meet VW 502.00 or ACEA A3. Synpower 5W-40 meets those specs, though. I believe 76 Pure Synthetic Motor Oil 5W-40 went the way of the dodo years ago.

The oil change and service intervals should be maintained after the warranty has expired.

quote:

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Tooslick, what is your comment on Doug Hillary's remark above that claims about Mobil 1 0W-40 suffering from excessive shearing are misinformation?

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Ted, Doug, and a bottle of Mobil 1 0W-40 are currently in therapy.

My spin on the issue: Mobil 1 0W-40, being a thin 40 tends to thin a little and may end up as thick 30, if you change the oil early. Remember, Mobil 1 0W-40 is a LL oil and designed for long oil change intervals. If you maintain a long oil change interval, the thinned 30 will thicken back up to a 40, or so goes the theory and BITOG lore. Personally, I don't like a yo-yo oil, but that's only my personal preference. There are plenty 1.8T engines running very well on Mobil 1 0W-40. I don't believe it to be the best possible oil choice, but more than quite adequate nonetheless. But as I said, I would use a VW 503.01 rated oil only if I were to take advantage of extended drains -- otherwise I'd stick with a VW 502.00 rated oil (or, in my case, Mobil 1 5W-40).

 

[DD]

quote:

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Originally posted by Audi Junkie:
SynPower 5w30 DOES NOT meet VW 502 in it's North American formulation. Still "trust" AoA's oil recommendations?

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Well, I think there is a difference between them erroneously listing an oil and whether they think the 502 spec is important or not. I don't even know if the list was compiled by AoA or Audi AG.

Then again, there is always the possibility if it's AoA that they're suffering from a rectal-cranial inversion.

DD

 

[Volvohead]

If it's not under waranty, I wouldn't be so hung up on whether an oil bears the manufacturer's official specification certification.

Freed from warranty shackles, there are some great choices, already mentioned, such as Delvac 1 and Redline. These are both best in breed in my book and probably better than most of the "certified" oils. The only concern would be that the RL might be a little too thick. Ask RL - they know their product and might indeed recommend their 10w30.

Then again, with RATIONAL OCIs, there's nothing objectionable about continuing with Mobil 1 0w-40 (the perpetual debate notwithstanding).

 

[TooSlick]

Alan,

I simply haven't seen much data from either the Mobil 1, 5w30 or 10w30 in that application. However I consider those two oils basically interchangable. I'd run the 10w30 and look at the bearing wear. If that was acceptable I'd stick with the thinner stuff. I'd also try the Mobil 1, 5w-40 which is significantly thicker in terms of HT/HS viscosity....

DD,

ALL the SAE 0w-40's I've seen will shear significantly in turbocharged and/or multivalve engines. Mobil 1 catches more grief simply because it's the most widely available 0w-40 in North America. Formulators of SAE 0w-40 grades count on this shearing and then oxidative thickening to keep the oil "in grade" over very long drain intervals. The problem is that it takes > 10,000 miles for the 0w-40 to thicken back up. So 95% of the users only see the initial shearing behavior.

Ted

 

[DD]

TooSlick,

Let's say, hypothetically, that Mobil 1 0W-40 does indeed shear as you think it does (I haven't seen any concrete data either way, only what I've read here 3rd-hand, so I really don't know.)

If it does shear down to, say, a 0w30 within the first few thousand miles, is that really so bad given that Audi approves some 30 weight oils for use with the 1.8T engine?

And if its HTHS remains above 3.5 during this process, it seems like it would meet Audi's requirements...

Am I missing something?

DD

[ June 28, 2005, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: DD ]

 

[Volvohead]

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug Hillary:


The "rational" OCIs using Mobil 1 0w-40 in Mercedes Benz engines (NA and supercharged) with ASSYST sensors are averaging about 18kkms (11k miles)
These vehicles have a 3 year unlimited distance Warranty in this country - and they actively seek Customer loyalty

The "rational" OCI using Mobil 1 0w-40 in all Porsche vehicles including the bi-turbo Cayenne is 20kkms (12k miles)
These vehicles have a 3 year unlimited distance Warranty in this country - and they actively seek Customer loyalty


Surely a "rational" OCI is what is recommended by the engine's manufacturer and/or what can be regularly achieved by using an ongoing UOA database on the specific engine with the one oil

Regards
Doug

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Doug,

Now I was very careful to state that a 10k OCI with this oil was not rational for most but not all engines.

You were careful to pick engines with high sump capacities, which may in fact support that interval. I expect a 9 quart sump on a Cayenne to go longer. It better, for what it costs to fill it. No doubt the huge sumps on the big commercial diesels go a long way in allowing their mammoth OCIs.

But would you care to run that OCI in this 2000 1.8T or a WRX, or perhaps my R? A very recent UOA on an R running this oil for "only" 8k showed it pretty depleted and with some significant shearing. This last example shows that for some oils and engines, the manufacturer interval is not necessarily optimal. Yet there are R owners out there running bulk dino for 7,500 miles in this 300 hp 2.5L turbo engine, fully compliant with warranty.

Not too long ago a poor Volvo owner was lamenting on one of these boards about her white block turbo dying from sludge-related failure only a 1,000 or so miles out of warranty. Volvo refused to cover it. And she faithfully followed the 7,500 "warranty interval" with the dealer bulk oil.

VOA/Audi screwed up with the sump capacity/OCI/oil quality specification on the 1.8T, and the problems and subsequent remedial measures evidence that error. These sludge-prone engines need synthetic at a minimum to survive. It's not the first instance where a manufacturer erred, and it won't be the last.

There are certainly oils that may hold up for 10k in a 1.8T. I don't think this 0w-40 is one of them. And I run the stuff.

When I see a really good UOA on a 10K OCI with this oil in a more mainstream sump capacity (6 qts or less) on a turbo engine, I'll change my tune. I have yet to see that here or anywhere else.

 

[zoomzoom]

my wote goes to GC..do one UOA at 5k and go from there!

 

[Volvohead]

quote:

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Originally posted by DD:
And Audi didn't mandate a change in OCI once the 40K mark was passed.

DD

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No, they increased the sump capacity instead. And they still had problems.

This engine is legion with sludged up examples from unfortunate owners who were just following the warranty interval. And there is an army of Chrysler 2.7 owners out there with bad engines who followed the warranty interval as well. Because the manufacturer said so, it must be right.

Manufacturers make mistakes. In the absence of a problem, you should of course follow their advice. But once it becomes apparent there's a problem, you pursue a workaround.

The problem with the 1.8T is fairly apparent at this point, so why would you continue with the same flawed recommendation? This engine is very hard on oil at that interval at that sump size.

 

[Audi Junkie]

quote:

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if its HTHS remains above 3.5 during this process

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It starts at 3.6 when the oil is new and, at +100c, >14cSt. After shearing, it's unlikely to retain HT/HS >3.5. GC appears more predictble.

quote:

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good UOA on a 10K OCI with this oil in a more mainstream sump capacity (6 qts or less) on a turbo engine

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Would an Audi 2.7tt from an S4 or allroad sufficice? Take a look, but it's pretty much the best otc oil for this engine...B. GC.

 

[DD]

quote:

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Originally posted by Volvohead:

quote:

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Originally posted by DD:
And Audi didn't mandate a change in OCI once the 40K mark was passed.

DD

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The problem with the 1.8T is fairly apparent at this point, so why would you continue with the same flawed recommendation? This engine is very hard on oil at that interval at that sump size.

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Because the problem was caused by three factors:

1. Inadequate sump capacity - which, as I noted earlier, has been increased to 4.8 quarts with the new filter.

2. Not mandating synthetic to begin with - Audi was allowing dealers to put in any 5w30 for a long time, including dino, which they've since rectified with TSB mandating synthetics with specific characteristics.

3. 10K Interval - Post 2000, Audi of America moved the A4 to a 10K service interval, which was a stupid move on their part to try to save on free service. They've since changed that back to 5K, as it always was for my model year and earlier.

I've seen people who have sludge from using small filters, using dino, or following long intervals.

I haven't seen any data that shows that using the large filter, a good synth, and a 5K OCI increases the likelihood of sludge when compared to a 3K OCI under the same conditions. Have you? If so, I'd like to see it.

To be honest, I can't tell if you're arguing that a 5K OCI is universally too long for the 1.8T, with any oil, or you just think it is with Mobil 1 0W-40.

DD

[ June 28, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: DD ]

 

[DD]

quote:

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Originally posted by zoomzoom:
my wote goes to GC..do one UOA at 5k and go from there!

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Which weight? And where do I find the mysterious GC? No local store (e.g. Kragen, Pep Boys) seems to stock it.

DD

 

[Volvohead]

I think we're now on the same page.

A 3k to 5k OCI seems more rational for this engine when considering the 0w-40. But you might be able to pull off a decent 10K OCI on some of the other oils mentioned. I would invest in an early UOA if attempting that long a run, though.

You said it yourself; the 10k service interval was a stupid move for this engine. A lot has to be going right for that to work.

Remember that the engineers have to do daily battle with the bean counters and the marketing clan on these things, and don't always win.

Soon we'll be seeing 15k intervals on many new vehicles, and we can wonder which camp is really driving that change.

 

[DD]

quote:

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Originally posted by Volvohead:

A 3k to 5k OCI seems more rational for this engine when considering the 0w-40. But you might be able to pull off a decent 10K OCI on some of the other oils mentioned. I would invest in an early UOA if attempting that long a run, though.

You said it yourself; the 10k service interval was a stupid move for this engine. A lot has to be going right for that to work.

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Okay, I think we're now getting back to the core of the thread...

Assuming that I'm using the larger filter, have done Auto-Rx (which I'm currently doing), that I live in a mild climate, that I'm chipped, that I have moderate driving patterns, that I'm not cost sensitive, am most concerned about wear and performance, think a 502 rating is nice to have (but not a must) and would like to stick to a 5K OCI, which oil do you think would be better than Mobil 1 0W-40 and why?

DD

 

[Volvohead]

quote:

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Originally posted by DD:

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Assuming that I'm using the larger filter, have done Auto-Rx (which I'm currently doing), that I live in a mild climate, that I'm chipped, that I have moderate driving patterns, that I'm not cost sensitive, am most concerned about wear and performance, think a 502 rating is nice to have (but not a must) and would like to stick to a 5K OCI, which oil do you think would be better than Mobil 1 0W-40 and why?

DD [/QUOTE]


If you punt on the 502 spec, I named two that I think are better oils here, particularly in a longer OCI. Delvac 1 is the best reciprocating engine oil EOM makes in my opinion. I think Redline is a great oil in a small displacement, high RPM turbo, but others may differ. Both are very robust and won't fall apart easily. And others have named a few good oils as well, at least one of which has the 502 certification.

The certification is a strong factor if you have to deal with warranty, and I presume you're not under warranty here.

 

[Audi Junkie]

"They've since changed that back to 5K"

-no, it's still 10k after a check-up visit at 5k.

Plenty of good used oil analysis in 1.8t over 8000-9000 mile range, even a 17k one.

"which oil do you think would be better than Mobil 1 0W-40 and why?"


DD- your'e restating a question that has been asked and answered. If you don't think you need a different oil, why bother? If you are changing at 3000-5000 miles anyway, talk about beating a dead horse. Time spent reviewing past threads on this subject would be most helpfull for YOU to pick an oil through your OWN personal hair-splitting process.

 

[DD]

quote:

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Originally posted by Audi Junkie:
"They've since changed that back to 5K"

-no, it's still 10k after a check-up visit at 5k.

Plenty of good used oil analysis in 1.8t over 8000-9000 mile range, even a 17k one.

"which oil do you think would be better than Mobil 1 0W-40 and why?"


DD- your'e restating a question that has been asked and answered. If you don't think you need a different oil, why bother? If you are changing at 3000-5000 miles anyway, talk about beating a dead horse. Time spent reviewing past threads on this subject would be most helpfull for YOU to pick an oil through your OWN personal hair-splitting process.

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The question question you quote above was specifically directed at Volvohead, whom I quoted when I asked the question, because he seems to think Mobil 1 0W-40 is very sub-optimal.

Sorry if the question is annoying to you, or you think it's a dead horse, but it wasn't directed at you.

I'm interested in exploring my options. If I wasn't, I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

I searched the threads extensively before starting the thread. Unfortunately, most of the threads regarding this seem to devolve into near-ideological disputes. There definitely doesn't appear to be anything close to a consensus.

The factions seem to break down into:

1. Those who think, with a 5K interval, it doesn't really matter very much. Almost any synthetic will do.

2. Those who think that Mobil 1 0W-40 is a suspicious product and wouldn't dare to run it in a relatively small sump turbo application.

3. Those who think that Mobil 1 0W-40 is okay, but there may be better choices.

I could just throw up my hands, admit most of the data seems pretty ambiguous, and just make a relatively arbitrary decision. But I'm hoping (or was hoping) that there might yet be some more nuggets that could be uncovered my turning over a few more rocks.

If that process doesn't interest or appeal to you, that's unfortunate, as I enjoy your participation.

DD

[ June 28, 2005, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: DD ]

 

[DD]

quote:

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Originally posted by Volvohead:

Both are very robust and won't fall apart easily.

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In this context, what does falling apart entail and what are the likely consequences that aren't at the far end of the bell curve?

DD

 

[DD]

quote:

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Originally posted by zoomzoom:
GC comes only in one weight 0w30 and can be found only at one store Auto Zone..

It will say Made in Germany on the back of it!

It is A3 rated oil and it will keep you engine and turbos happy!

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Is this the same stuff? It seems to be A3 rated, and meets VW 502, 505, and 503.01. But I can't tell from online if it's made in Germany or not:

Part # - A52

http://www.proformanceusa.com/mall/castrol_automotive_syntec.asp

DD

 

[wavinwayne]

DD,

FWIW, Mobil 1 0w40 does just fine in my VW 1.8T. A recent UOA backs this up. I say use it. IMO, you can't go wrong with it for 5-7k miles in you Audi, assuming you have a properly tuned engine.

Even if you engine has fuel dilution in the .5-1.0% range, I would still feel completely comfortable going 5-7k on Mobil 1 0w40 in your Audi.

My VW 1.8T's last UOA (5100 miles on Mobil 1 0w40) showed 1.0% fuel, & Blackstone still said I could safely extend my interval, although they didn't specify exactly how much.

 

[DD]

quote:

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Originally posted by wavinwayne:
DD,

FWIW, Mobil 1 0w40 does just fine in my VW 1.8T. A recent UOA backs this up. I say use it. IMO, you can't go wrong with it for 5-7k miles in you Audi, assuming you have a properly tuned engine.

Even if you engine has fuel dilution in the .5-1.0% range, I would still feel completely comfortable going 5-7k on Mobil 1 0w40 in your Audi.

My VW 1.8T's last UOA (5100 miles on Mobil 1 0w40) showed 1.0% fuel, & Blackstone still said I could safely extend my interval, although they didn't specify exactly how much.

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Thanks, wayne. Are you using it in a Beetle, a Jetta, a Passat, or a Golf? Because, AFAIK, the sludging problem was worse in the Passat than in others.

DD