which 5w-30?

[svenson]

ESP 0W-30 virgin oxidation of 32 as of 4/25 indicating a fair amount of esters.

taken this post ftom a momber on a same topic about M1 esp 0-30

is this 5-7% a true verified amount of esters that this oil has? or is it just a a guess?
if it is true,is this a fair amount of esters for an oil to have such a high oxidation numbers on a VOA?

i mean according to that post ,how much ester content other perfomance brands have?

second question,is this an APIL SL -like castrol 0-30- oil which only meets sn and sp requirement and tests? if i understand correclty.

 

[Glenda W.]

taken this post ftom a momber on a same topic about M1 esp 0-30

View attachment 291864
is this 5-7% a true verified amount of esters that this oil has? or is it just a a guess?
if it is true,is this a fair amount of esters for an oil to have such a high oxidation numbers on a VOA?

i mean according to that post ,how much ester content other perfomance brands have?

second question,is this an APIL SL -like castrol 0-30- oil which only meets sn and sp requirement and tests? if i understand correclty.

@buster is much smarter than I, so hopefully he’ll chime in. I do know a virgin oxidation over 30 indicates esters are present. Most OTS oils are under 10 and many boutiques are 50-70, I don’t believe you need very much to be effective. The 7%-15% is thrown around a lot.

 

[buster]

taken this post ftom a momber on a same topic about M1 esp 0-30

View attachment 291864
is this 5-7% a true verified amount of esters that this oil has? or is it just a a guess?
if it is true,is this a fair amount of esters for an oil to have such a high oxidation numbers on a VOA?

i mean according to that post ,how much ester content other perfomance brands have?

second question,is this an APIL SL -like castrol 0-30- oil which only meets sn and sp requirement and tests? if i understand correclty.

These are just very general estimates. Oils that use an ester co-base generally show an oxidation value>30. It's impossible to determine the exact amount based on oxidation value and FTIR peaks, but you can see a strong correlation and get some idea. When I spoke to Dave at RL I asked him about this and he told me some grades use up to 40% which is extremely high for a PCMO. However, RL's oxidation value is also on par with Valvoline Premium Blue Restore and HPL EC.

I would guess the ESP line to have 5-8% POE. Amsoil SS 10-14%, RL - 15-40%, Valvoline Premium Blue Restore - 50%. Very rough guesstimate.

See post#6

Thread 'HPL Engine Cleaner EC30 - VOA'

May 18, 2023

RDY4WAR posted this in the HPL EC thread, so I decided to copy/paste it here for future reference.

• buster
• Replies: 5
• Forum: Virgin Oil Analysis - PCMO/HDEO

• 

 

[tired]

These are just very general estimates. Oils that use an ester co-base generally show an oxidation value>30. It's impossible to determine the exact amount based on oxidation value and FTIR peaks, but you can see a strong correlation and get some idea. When I spoke to Dave at RL I asked him about this and he told me some grades use up to 40% which is extremely high for a PCMO. However, RL's oxidation value is also on par with Valvoline Premium Blue Restore and HPL EC.

I would guess the ESP line to have 5-8% POE. Amsoil SS 10-14%, RL - 15-40%, Valvoline Premium Blue Restore - 50%. Very rough guesstimate.

See post#6

Thread 'HPL Engine Cleaner EC30 - VOA'

May 18, 2023

RDY4WAR posted this in the HPL EC thread, so I decided to copy/paste it here for future reference.

• buster
• Replies: 5
• Forum: Virgin Oil Analysis - PCMO/HDEO

• 

For another point of comparison, where would you estimate HPL PCMO’s ester content?

 

[buster]

For another point of comparison, where would you estimate HPL PCMO’s ester content?

I don't really know but HPL also uses ANs so it has very good solvency.

 

[Pao99]

so the new oil isn't that bad after all?

 

[edyvw]

so the new oil isn't that bad after all?

I am not sure that anyone here said ESP 5W30 is “bad” oil.

 

[Pao99]

Even though it doesn't have a PAO base but an HC base, it's still a good oil? Why?

 

[tired]

Even though it doesn't have a PAO base but an HC base, it's still a good oil? Why?

It’s the ester content that people here are more excited about in the 0W-30 variety.

The bottom line is that the 5W-30 weight still meets the same (plus LL) approvals, so however they did it, it holds up to the same rigorous tests.

 

[scrllock]

Even though it doesn't have a PAO base but an HC base, it's still a good oil? Why?

passes the most stringent euro approvals for a 5w30, good HTHS, cheap, widely available. we don't know exactly how mobil formulated it, but it's clearly good.

 

[edyvw]

Even though it doesn't have a PAO base but an HC base, it's still a good oil? Why?

From oil.ru:

The oil is declared as: API SP; ACEA C3; BMW Longlife-04, MB-Approval 229.51, MB-Approval 229.52, Porsche C30, VW 504 00/507 00, Opel/Vauxhall OV 040 1547 - D30, Opel OV 040 1547 - G30, Fiat 9.55535-S3, Suitable for ACEA C2.
1) The oil has every right to be called 5W-30
2) Viscosity at 100C = 12.16 cSt - within the usual 12+/-0.3 cSt for SAE 30 ACEA C3 oils, which ensures a balance of energy-saving and protective properties with a guaranteed HTHS of at least 3.5 mPas
3) Viscosity index = 170 - a typical result, which indicates stable operation of this oil in a wide temperature range for viscosity 5W-30
4) Alkaline number = 8.65 mg KOH/g - a typical result for medium-ash oil, which indicates a sufficient reserve of detergent-neutralizing properties, taking into account the slower decrease in the alkaline number compared to full-ash analogues
5) Acid number = 1.54 mg KOH/g - low, providing a good reserve for growth as TBN falls
6) Sulfated ash = 0.71% - an excellent result for a medium-ash product: when the oil burns, there will be little carbon deposits
7) Flash point in o.t. = 228C - normal result: no problems with thermal stability
8) Mass evaporation NOACK = 8.6% - a good result, satisfying the requirements of MV229.51/229.52: the oil is not prone to increased burnout
9) Pour point = -41C - normal result for 5W oil
10) CCS cold cranking viscosity at -30C = 6350 mPas - normal result, meeting the requirements of SAE 5W (<6600 mPas)
11) Sulfur content = 0.190 - low sulfur, indicating a modern additive package and high-quality base components
12) Additive package: Infineum. Anti-wear additives based on Phosphorus and Zinc compounds; detergent additives based on Calcium and Magnesium compounds + ashless dispersant in the form of Boron succinimide
13) Oxidation = 13.6 - indicates the presence of an ester additive that performs primarily an antioxidant function.

The Fourier IR spectrum indicates that the oil is created on the basis of VHVI hydrocracking + a little PAO (according to MSDS ), amine and phenolic antioxidants, a lot of succinimides (dispersants).


Conclusion: this is a medium-ash oil from a leading global manufacturer, seasoned with a bunch of approvals. According to the analysis, everything is normal, but not all the features of the oil can be determined by analysis alone. Judging by the low-temperature viscosity of CCS , we can assume high-viscosity base components with a minimum amount of thickener. That is, this oil should maintain viscosity well even at high mileage. A large number of dispersants contribute to a decent resource. Calcium and Magnesium in the composition are designed to prevent the negative effect of LSPI, which, coupled with low ash content, are perfect for turbo engines with direct injection. With a high probability, there are mPAO and friction modifiers, providing fuel economy and additional protection. In short, this is a top product from a global brand. And whether you like this oil or not is a secondary question.

 

[buster]

It’s the ester content that people here are more excited about in the 0W-30 variety.

The bottom line is that the 5W-30 weight still meets the same (plus LL) approvals, so however they did it, it holds up to the same rigorous tests.

Right. In actuality the fixation on esters is really just for those that geek out on this stuff. Specifications come first. How you got there is another story. We're also going by virgin oxidation values, which tells you nothing about the type of ester. It is interesting though to see Mobil slowly move away from POE in some of the grades that used to have it - M1 FS 0w40/ESP 5w30.

I'm curious how the OTC oils maintain cleanliness with 1. Low/mid sap detergent levels 2. no/little ester. If you read some of the patents they talk about cleaning boosters, which could be a variety of things, so who knows...

The super top tier expensive oils do appear to have one common denominator though - ester cobase oil. RL, Amsoil SS, Torco, HPL. Torco uses AN and ester as well and they specifically say that those two base oils are what keeps engines deposit free and clean.

From an economic POV I would think that OTC oils that don't contain the ultra-high expense base oils rely more on oxidation resistance.

An interesting question - what would keep an engine cleaner 1. syn oil that has superior oxidation resistance but not much solvency (group V) or 2. syn oil with good ester but oxidation resistance isn't that good?

 

[Glenda W.]

An interesting question - what would keep an engine cleaner 1. syn oil that has superior oxidation resistance but not much solvency (group V) or 2. syn oil with good ester but oxidation resistance isn't that good?

May I have both please?

Amsoil SS
HPL

 

[tired]

Right. In actuality the fixation on esters is really just for those that geek out on this stuff. Specifications come first. How you got there is another story. We're also going by virgin oxidation values, which tells you nothing about the type of ester. It is interesting though to see Mobil slowly move away from POE in some of the grades that used to have it - M1 FS 0w40/ESP 5w30.

I'm curious how the OTC oils maintain cleanliness with 1. Low/mid sap detergent levels 2. no/little ester. If you read some of the patents they talk about cleaning boosters, which could be a variety of things, so who knows...

The super top tier expensive oils do appear to have one common denominator though - ester cobase oil. RL, Amsoil SS, Torco, HPL. Torco uses AN and ester as well and they specifically say that those two base oils are what keeps engines deposit free and clean.

From an economic POV I would think that OTC oils that don't contain the ultra-high expense base oils rely more on oxidation resistance.

An interesting question - what would keep an engine cleaner 1. syn oil that has superior oxidation resistance but not much solvency (group V) or 2. syn oil with good ester but oxidation resistance isn't that good?

Yes, and last I checked on here, no one had really figured out how the M1 ESP 5W-30 is doing it yet. No ANs in it.

 

[Pao99]

From oil.ru:

The oil is declared as: API SP; ACEA C3; BMW Longlife-04, MB-Approval 229.51, MB-Approval 229.52, Porsche C30, VW 504 00/507 00, Opel/Vauxhall OV 040 1547 - D30, Opel OV 040 1547 - G30, Fiat 9.55535-S3, Suitable for ACEA C2.
1) The oil has every right to be called 5W-30
2) Viscosity at 100C = 12.16 cSt - within the usual 12+/-0.3 cSt for SAE 30 ACEA C3 oils, which ensures a balance of energy-saving and protective properties with a guaranteed HTHS of at least 3.5 mPas
3) Viscosity index = 170 - a typical result, which indicates stable operation of this oil in a wide temperature range for viscosity 5W-30
4) Alkaline number = 8.65 mg KOH/g - a typical result for medium-ash oil, which indicates a sufficient reserve of detergent-neutralizing properties, taking into account the slower decrease in the alkaline number compared to full-ash analogues
5) Acid number = 1.54 mg KOH/g - low, providing a good reserve for growth as TBN falls
6) Sulfated ash = 0.71% - an excellent result for a medium-ash product: when the oil burns, there will be little carbon deposits
7) Flash point in o.t. = 228C - normal result: no problems with thermal stability
8) Mass evaporation NOACK = 8.6% - a good result, satisfying the requirements of MV229.51/229.52: the oil is not prone to increased burnout
9) Pour point = -41C - normal result for 5W oil
10) CCS cold cranking viscosity at -30C = 6350 mPas - normal result, meeting the requirements of SAE 5W (<6600 mPas)
11) Sulfur content = 0.190 - low sulfur, indicating a modern additive package and high-quality base components
12) Additive package: Infineum. Anti-wear additives based on Phosphorus and Zinc compounds; detergent additives based on Calcium and Magnesium compounds + ashless dispersant in the form of Boron succinimide
13) Oxidation = 13.6 - indicates the presence of an ester additive that performs primarily an antioxidant function.

The Fourier IR spectrum indicates that the oil is created on the basis of VHVI hydrocracking + a little PAO (according to MSDS ), amine and phenolic antioxidants, a lot of succinimides (dispersants).


Conclusion: this is a medium-ash oil from a leading global manufacturer, seasoned with a bunch of approvals. According to the analysis, everything is normal, but not all the features of the oil can be determined by analysis alone. Judging by the low-temperature viscosity of CCS , we can assume high-viscosity base components with a minimum amount of thickener. That is, this oil should maintain viscosity well even at high mileage. A large number of dispersants contribute to a decent resource. Calcium and Magnesium in the composition are designed to prevent the negative effect of LSPI, which, coupled with low ash content, are perfect for turbo engines with direct injection. With a high probability, there are mPAO and friction modifiers, providing fuel economy and additional protection. In short, this is a top product from a global brand. And whether you like this oil or not is a secondary question.

Great review. The video says it doesn't lose viscosity. Could there be a new technology behind the production?