Whew, I have health insurance for 2014 !!!!

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Win
Policies that affect people should be made on actual facts - not disinformation, propaganda, or lies.


Expecting integrity in an elected official these days is a losing proposition from the start. Whether left or right they all lack the simple ability to simply do right by their constituents...

 

[Blaze]

Friend of mine had to lay off one employee (small cabinet shop) due to the ACA and his rates going up. So now we have someone paying more out of pocket and another guy layed off and most likey going on foodstamps, unemployment, Medicaid.....trainwreck!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
But apparently we are expected to buy into Uncle Sam Knows Best uncritically.


LOL That might be what they expect, or hope. I think the majority or working class Americans think differently though. This is just one example of Uncle Sam really screwing up IMO. Just have a look at the enrollment numbers, that tells the whole story. I can't wait to see how they plan on fixing this mess when they fall tremendously short of their expected numbers. Can anyone say watch them jack prices through the roof for those of us paying and not qualifying for exemptions.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: javacontour
But apparently we are expected to buy into Uncle Sam Knows Best uncritically.


LOL That might be what they expect, or hope. I think the majority or working class Americans think differently though. This is just one example of Uncle Sam really screwing up IMO. Just have a look at the enrollment numbers, that tells the whole story. I can't wait to see how they plan on fixing this mess when they fall tremendously short of their expected numbers. Can anyone say watch them jack prices through the roof for those of us paying and not qualifying for exemptions.


The "fix" is a single payer system. Then we can be just like other countries.

I always liked being a bit BETTER than other countries...

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: javacontour
But apparently we are expected to buy into Uncle Sam Knows Best uncritically.


LOL That might be what they expect, or hope. I think the majority or working class Americans think differently though. This is just one example of Uncle Sam really screwing up IMO. Just have a look at the enrollment numbers, that tells the whole story. I can't wait to see how they plan on fixing this mess when they fall tremendously short of their expected numbers. Can anyone say watch them jack prices through the roof for those of us paying and not qualifying for exemptions.


The "fix" is a single payer system. Then we can be just like other countries.

I always liked being a bit BETTER than other countries...


I have no idea what the fix is. What's currently available in the market place wasn't a fix for me.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The "fix" is a single payer system. Then we can be just like other countries. I always liked being a bit BETTER than other countries...


Exactly. That's what we should strive for. Not to model ourselves after what others do, but to do what's best for Americans.

A bit off topic, but yesterday I was showing a friend our company jet. He remarked that the nav map of available airports was heavily biased to the USA. With "seemingly" more airports in the state of Florida than all of Africa, China, the Far East and Russia combined. The discussion (again) then went towards how neither of us care how the rest of the world "does it". We don't live there. I like it here.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


The "fix" is a single payer system. Then we can be just like other countries.

I always liked being a bit BETTER than other countries...


But what you have isn't better than other countries, that's the problem

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
But healthcare is becoming a competitive drag and standard of living issue and we're going to have to look at how other countries do it soon.


Be careful what you wish for...


What? Better healthcare outcomes at lower cost, a proven reality for all other developed countries?


I don't intend to make this personal, but I have to ask: do you have any experience with the health care system in these other developed countries? I do and could fill this post with horror stories... The likes of which most Americans couldn't even conceive of.

I'll say it again, be careful what you wish for...

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


The "fix" is a single payer system. Then we can be just like other countries.

I always liked being a bit BETTER than other countries...


But what you have isn't better than other countries, that's the problem

That's not necessarily true, or, at least it wasn't true. Our system had a lot of faults... I don't think anyone can argue that point. However, our medical treatment afforded was second to none

Ask me again in a year's time...

At this rate, with doctors pulling out of the plan & hospitals and care centers saying no to this new plan (or Medicare for that matter) is it at all reasonable to expect greater care? Sure, we'll have health insurance, but who will be affording the health care?

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: javacontour
But apparently we are expected to buy into Uncle Sam Knows Best uncritically.


LOL That might be what they expect, or hope. I think the majority or working class Americans think differently though. This is just one example of Uncle Sam really screwing up IMO. Just have a look at the enrollment numbers, that tells the whole story. I can't wait to see how they plan on fixing this mess when they fall tremendously short of their expected numbers. Can anyone say watch them jack prices through the roof for those of us paying and not qualifying for exemptions.


The "fix" is a single payer system. Then we can be just like other countries.

I always liked being a bit BETTER than other countries...


I have no idea what the fix is. What's currently available in the market place wasn't a fix for me.



But that's the beauty of the ACA... There's no turning back now.

What do you tell those with pre-existing conditions?
What do we tell the 25 year old that still can't find a job with benefits?

Once it's given, it can't be taken back... Never, never, never

We're stuck with this little cherub, in some way, shape or form.

I believe Trav hit the nail squarely on the head pages ago when he opined that the ACA had nothing to do with health insurance.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Finz

We're stuck with this little cherub, in some way, shape or form.



Amen!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


The "fix" is a single payer system. Then we can be just like other countries.

I always liked being a bit BETTER than other countries...


But what you have isn't better than other countries, that's the problem

IMO that is primarily spin. And the net effect of the current law, if our King allows it to be enforced, is to REDUCE the number of insured folks, REDUCE the number of doctors, RAISE insurance costs, ELIMINATE competition, etc.

Please elaborate so I can get a feel for how this 'improves' my healthcare...

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
The discussion (again) then went towards how neither of us care how the rest of the world "does it". We don't live there. I like it here.


You and I see it similarly. Who cares about the rest of the world. I want us to continue to advance the standard of living that has made our country like a shining beacon in the night to others. I am not interested in the rest of the world's standards being brought here and applied.

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Cujet
The discussion (again) then went towards how neither of us care how the rest of the world "does it". We don't live there. I like it here.


You and I see it similarly. Who cares about the rest of the world. I want us to continue to advance the standard of living that has made our country like a shining beacon in the night to others. I am not interested in the rest of the world's standards being brought here and applied.


I agree 100%. We've had greater opportunities here to create such advancements, not all, of course, but a lot

Impeding anyone or any country's ability for such innovation/creation/advancement, hurts on a global scale and, to me, is counter productive toward a greater good.

That sounds corny, I know, but if the incentive toward building a better mouse trap is removed (in this case, taken), where is the growth going to come from?

Is there anyone who still believes Thomas Edison was so altruistic as to forgo rewards for his inventions? Ask the folks at Westinghouse... Case in point regarding global innovations outside of the US... Humphrey Davy of Great Britain initially got the ball rolling decades beforehand

The same principal applies toward health care innovation and practice...

Why incur debt of hundreds of thousands of dollars to enter a system that dictates your ability to charge $45 +/- (Medicare) for a patient visit? Better to work for Rotor-Rooter and get $125 for removing hair from a shower drain

 

[Finz]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Healthcare just does not lend itself to being a for profit industry.


I don't see how for-profit or not-for-profit has any bearing...

The average loss ratio for Health Insurers is in the 80%-90% neighborhood meaning for every premium dollar collected, $0.80 to $0.90 is paid out in "losses", right? (FWIW: Insurance companies make most of their profit from ROE)

For-profit vs NFP would do nothing to change this... In fact, depending upon the bylaws, the directors could be free to carve out huge administrative costs (aka: salaries) to such a degree as to weaken the liquidity of the organization.

Also, the tax exempt status on an NFP, is contrary to the current mantra

 

[Papa Bear]

Most of our Canadian Government projects evolve into NFP endeavors all by themselves.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Finz


That's not necessarily true, or, at least it wasn't true. Our system had a lot of faults... I don't think anyone can argue that point. However, our medical treatment afforded was second to none

Ask me again in a year's time...

At this rate, with doctors pulling out of the plan & hospitals and care centers saying no to this new plan (or Medicare for that matter) is it at all reasonable to expect greater care? Sure, we'll have health insurance, but who will be affording the health care?



My only comparison is to our healthcare system up here, which I work in, so have rather extensive experience with. I have no idea how it is in France, Germany, Australia, Norway, Sweden....etc. Canada spends a LOT of money on healthcare in the GTA. Sick Kids just had a huge renovation, Toronto Rehab just doubled in size, Toronto Grace is currently expanding, Princess Margaret just did some upgrades as well.....etc. And if I, or heaven forbid, my children ever need to be treated at any of these world-class facilities, I am not out of pocket, no matter how long I am there, and that's the key point. The treatments that some of my family has received over the years, particularly the elderly, would have financially ruined them if they were to get it in the USA. I'm sure the quality of treatment would be just as good, but the price tag? No thank you.

That's what I'm basing my opinion on the use of the term "better" here. As even if the treatment itself is first-class, which I have no doubt it is, if it is unaffordable or costs the numbers that many have tossed out in this thread to be insured against it, that doesn't make it better in my eyes.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Wait till the young find out how they are being fleeced to pay for it. I have a 27 year old friend with a small biz with 7 employees. His personal insurance went from 4500 dollars to 11,200 dollars. And his deductible is HUGE!

It will basically force him to eliminate a few employees.


$4500 for insurance? Must have been a pretty lousy plan. Im all for catastrophic only plans, but if my very large risk pool equates to a $12000 family HDHP plan, then I cant imagine what that insurance doesnt cover when bought individually before, with no pooled risk and far poorer pricing plans...

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Cujet
The discussion (again) then went towards how neither of us care how the rest of the world "does it". We don't live there. I like it here.


You and I see it similarly. Who cares about the rest of the world. I want us to continue to advance the standard of living that has made our country like a shining beacon in the night to others. I am not interested in the rest of the world's standards being brought here and applied.


I generally agree with everything youve said here... But let's not play ostrich. We have a healthcare system that costs us nearly 20% of our GDP, with poor outcomes, not even the top 20 in terms of longevity, higher infant mortality than other places, etc. The system we had/have is NOT that great, in fact it was pretty darn poor and expensive.

I concur with the causes as youve cited them before. But I dont see the right "change" occurring. I dont see any of this ACA lasting, but at least there is a step towards doing something vs the unaffordable and lousy status quo that doesnt make the US the best in the world, but in fact, pretty darn lousy. Nothing to aspire to.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
We have a healthcare system that costs us nearly 20% of our GDP, with poor outcomes, not even the top 20 in terms of longevity, higher infant mortality than other places, etc. The system we had/have is NOT that great, in fact it was pretty darn poor and expensive.


Not even close to being accurate. In fact, I submit that our health care system is absolutely incredible, and beyond the rest of the world by leaps and bounds. Let's look at the facts:

AND, 85 years ago:

 

[Cujet]

And, for God's sake, a BMI of over 30 is WAY TOO BIG. 31% of Americans are FATTER than this!!!!

Anything over 25 is FAT, unhealthy and is KNOWN to cause and promote disease. Including cancer, heart disease and so on. It's a statistical certainty.