when will the grand marquis production stop?

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"After pressure from police agencies, Ford began retrofitting all older models of Crown Victoria police cars with protective fuel tank shields. Starting in 2004, the shields became standard equipment. Ford offered this same protection to Town Car limousines starting in September 2005. However, Ford has yet to notify the general public about these cars’ vulnerability to rear impact fires and the availability of protective shields. "

Interesting that Ford isn't choosing to make the shield standard on consumer vehicles, and only sent out a note to dealers to have the shields available (but not to dealer-install them standard) after a CNN story:

http://www.autosafety.org/uploads/phpl4Yxmf_012406EmailtoFordDealerships.pdf

Also, I think it's more than a few that have caught fire, since this is just a list from '93-06:

http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com/officersnames.html

I'm not trying to rip apart the CV- it's just that I was thinking of buying a PI version because I thought it was a great, safe car, and after doing a little research, now I'm not.
 
Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: moving2
Originally Posted By: Onmo'Eegusee

The fuel tank thing was blown out of proportion. The fire rate is no higher than any other modern vehicle. [...] I would look at the DUI that usually end up hitting them.


Do you have a source for your claim about the fire rate being no higher than any other modern vehicle?

Reading up a bit more on this, isn't this increased risk of fire in a high speed rear end collision due to the fact that the fuel tank is placed behind the rear axle and within the crumple-zone of the rear end?


Have you observed where it is situated on a Honda Odyssey van? There are a lot of other vehicles with much "poorer" tank placement. They just aren't used for law enforcement.

The Odyssey and Sienna fuel tanks are forward of the rear axle. That "tank" you see is the floor where the seats fold into. The Fit has its fuel tank beneath the passenger's seat.

Toyota and Nissan placed fuel tanks in the "crush" zone on the Cressida, Supra, Maxima and 300ZX. Jag had 2 fuel tanks flank the quarter panels in the older XJs.


I'm thinking pre '05, which was the redesign year. I'll see if I can look underneath one when I have a chance.

Dodge had them "around" the rear "axle" assembly in the Caravan as well; with the I-beam passing through a relief in the top of the tank.
 
Originally Posted By: moving2
"After pressure from police agencies, Ford began retrofitting all older models of Crown Victoria police cars with protective fuel tank shields. Starting in 2004, the shields became standard equipment. Ford offered this same protection to Town Car limousines starting in September 2005. However, Ford has yet to notify the general public about these cars’ vulnerability to rear impact fires and the availability of protective shields. "

Interesting that Ford isn't choosing to make the shield standard on consumer vehicles, and only sent out a note to dealers to have the shields available (but not to dealer-install them standard) after a CNN story:

http://www.autosafety.org/uploads/phpl4Yxmf_012406EmailtoFordDealerships.pdf

Also, I think it's more than a few that have caught fire, since this is just a list from '93-06:

http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com/officersnames.html

I'm not trying to rip apart the CV- it's just that I was thinking of buying a PI version because I thought it was a great, safe car, and after doing a little research, now I'm not.



The Caprice had it directly behind the rear bumper.

The ONLY reason this got press was because of the sheer number of these cars in Police service, and the nature of their use dictates that statistically, they will see the highest number of high-speed rear-end collisions.

The reason Ford has never fitted the shield on the consumer model was because this is not a real issue. There are so many vehicles statistically more likely to catch fire or have their fuel tank punctured than the Panther chassis cars that is simply ridiculous to judge this car based on an issue that was brought to light ONLY because of the cars complete dominance of the lawn enforcement vehicle market!!!

You could do FAR worse than choosing a Crown Vic......
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


The ONLY reason this got press was because of the sheer number of these cars in Police service, and the nature of their use dictates that statistically, they will see the highest number of high-speed rear-end collisions.

The reason Ford has never fitted the shield on the consumer model was because this is not a real issue. There are so many vehicles statistically more likely to catch fire or have their fuel tank punctured than the Panther chassis cars that is simply ridiculous to judge this car based on an issue that was brought to light ONLY because of the cars complete dominance of the lawn enforcement vehicle market!!!

You could do FAR worse than choosing a Crown Vic......


According to this site:
http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com/designproblem.html

the Panther is the only line of passenger cars manufactured in NA using this fuel tank design, so I think it's more than just the fact they are used as police cars. If you look at the list of fatalities due to fire, you'll see it's not limited to Police Cruisers, but also limos/taxis/personal vehicles.

You claim that "There are so many vehicles statistically more likely to catch fire or have their fuel tank punctured than the Panther chassis cars..." -- do you have some data to show me some cars currently in production that are more likely to catch fire?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: moving2
"After pressure from police agencies, Ford began retrofitting all older models of Crown Victoria police cars with protective fuel tank shields. Starting in 2004, the shields became standard equipment. Ford offered this same protection to Town Car limousines starting in September 2005. However, Ford has yet to notify the general public about these cars’ vulnerability to rear impact fires and the availability of protective shields. "

Interesting that Ford isn't choosing to make the shield standard on consumer vehicles, and only sent out a note to dealers to have the shields available (but not to dealer-install them standard) after a CNN story:

http://www.autosafety.org/uploads/phpl4Yxmf_012406EmailtoFordDealerships.pdf

Also, I think it's more than a few that have caught fire, since this is just a list from '93-06:

http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com/officersnames.html

I'm not trying to rip apart the CV- it's just that I was thinking of buying a PI version because I thought it was a great, safe car, and after doing a little research, now I'm not.



The Caprice had it directly behind the rear bumper.

The ONLY reason this got press was because of the sheer number of these cars in Police service, and the nature of their use dictates that statistically, they will see the highest number of high-speed rear-end collisions.

The reason Ford has never fitted the shield on the consumer model was because this is not a real issue. There are so many vehicles statistically more likely to catch fire or have their fuel tank punctured than the Panther chassis cars that is simply ridiculous to judge this car based on an issue that was brought to light ONLY because of the cars complete dominance of the lawn enforcement vehicle market!!!

You could do FAR worse than choosing a Crown Vic......


I agree. On the link to Crownvicsafetyalert- there were only 11 instances of civilian fires/death.
Now - before anyone flames me - from a human standpoint, one death is TOO many. But in real life accidents are going to happen.
All I'm saying is the percent is REALLY low.
 
Originally Posted By: moving2
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


The ONLY reason this got press was because of the sheer number of these cars in Police service, and the nature of their use dictates that statistically, they will see the highest number of high-speed rear-end collisions.

The reason Ford has never fitted the shield on the consumer model was because this is not a real issue. There are so many vehicles statistically more likely to catch fire or have their fuel tank punctured than the Panther chassis cars that is simply ridiculous to judge this car based on an issue that was brought to light ONLY because of the cars complete dominance of the lawn enforcement vehicle market!!!

You could do FAR worse than choosing a Crown Vic......


According to this site:
http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com/designproblem.html

the Panther is the only line of passenger cars manufactured in NA using this fuel tank design,


They are the only full-framed passenger car in production. Pretty easy to be the only one using this design given that fact.

Quote:
so I think it's more than just the fact they are used as police cars. If you look at the list of fatalities due to fire, you'll see it's not limited to Police Cruisers, but also limos/taxis/personal vehicles.


Again, they are the predominant choice of taxi and limo services as well. Show me a single vehicle that currently has more market share in Law Enforcement, Limo and Taxi service than the Panther cars.

Quote:
You claim that "There are so many vehicles statistically more likely to catch fire or have their fuel tank punctured than the Panther chassis cars..." -- do you have some data to show me some cars currently in production that are more likely to catch fire?


No such data exists. They are the only car used in this manner, so they are a single statistical point.

The predecessor, the Caprice (which I mentioned above) has the tank directly behind the bumper. Given the older-body Caprice's natural inclination to rust out the bumper mounts, an older Caprice would me much more likely to have the tank punctured in a rear collision.

The Dodge Caravan has its tank cradled below the rear axle. The Mustang has it directly behind the bumper. This to me, is "poorer" placement, but since NONE of these vehicles are used in any great number in the same manner as the Panther cars, they cannot be statistically contrasted.

It is kind of like contrasting the number of F14's that have come out of the sky to the number of 747's...... One is used for Military use, the other isn't......
 
http://www.firepanel.net/images/02-21-03_fears_expand_to_consumers.pdf

"According to a study by the Center for Auto Safety using NHTSA's fatality database, there were 104 deaths in crashes with fires in Crown Victoria, Town Car and Grand Marquis cars between 1993 and 2001. Thirty-seven were in police vehicles and 67 were in civilian vehicles.
'Ford has been trying to portray this as just a police problem,' said Center for Auto Safety executive director Clarence Ditlow. 'It isn't. There are more people being killed in civilian versions.' "

And that's just up to 2001. I wonder how those stats have increased from 2001-2009?
 
Originally Posted By: moving2
http://www.firepanel.net/images/02-21-03_fears_expand_to_consumers.pdf

"According to a study by the Center for Auto Safety using NHTSA's fatality database, there were 104 deaths in crashes with fires in Crown Victoria, Town Car and Grand Marquis cars between 1993 and 2001. Thirty-seven were in police vehicles and 67 were in civilian vehicles.
'Ford has been trying to portray this as just a police problem,' said Center for Auto Safety executive director Clarence Ditlow. 'It isn't. There are more people being killed in civilian versions.' "

And that's just up to 2001. I wonder how those stats have increased from 2001-2009?


And how many of these fires were PROVEN to be directly related to the lack of a gas tank shield, or even had the tank ignite?

I saw a Civic burning on the side of the road a month or so ago, am I to assume because the vehicle was on fire, that the tank was on fire and it was a problem with the lack of shielding on the fuel tank that led to the car being on fire?

ANY vehicle will burn.

I wonder what the number is for CR-V's that caught fire due to the oil filter o-ring sticking to the block? I know it was high enough that Honda issues a TSB.....
 
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This gas tank and fire thing is greatly exaggerated and really without merit. If one considers how many Crown Vic's are on the road in this country at any one time (tens of thousands of police, fleet, taxi, security, government, and civilian, etc.) and the amount of use, abuse, and yes, accidents they get into without folks burning to a crisp....the obvious conclusion is that this would have to be one of the most safe vehicles ever built. The demonization of this vehicle comes from, in my opinion, the bias against larger vehicles in this country from the media at large. I guess it's not 'green' enough.
 
Maybe you guys are right- the fact that the metal (not plastic as in the Caprice) fuel tank is placed behind the rear axle and in the rear crumple zone of the vehicle has nothing to do with the fires.

http://www.safetyforum.com/cvpi/chart1a.gif

I guess if I owned one I'd be trying to convince myself of that, as well. Just look at all the other vehicle fires and say they're all the same, or they all do it, and ignore the seemingly obvious design problem.

BTW- I was thinking of buying a CV and installing the bladder on it, but decided against it. I still think they're great cars, just not as safe as I thought in the crash test ratings, and the location of the fuel tank and associated fires in police AND civilian vehicles is scary- if Ford decided to change the fuel tank locationto a safer place, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

Overkill- as for questioning whether the fires I referenced were caused by the fuel tank problem- I could bury my head in the sand and deny that the design of the vehicle (fuel tank location in crumple zone and near rear axle and associated components) and data showing the failure mode, etc. wasn't related to the police and civilian fatality numbers we see; I could give them the benefit of the doubt and say "maybe it wasn't the fuel tank, maybe it was something else and I'll believe it was something other than the fuel tank until proven otherwise" but passenger safety isn't a case where I will give the automaker the benefit of the doubt, especially given this design and the record of fatalities. I will err on the side of caution.
 
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Wow, who knew this topic would turn in to such a "heated" discussion.

The Crown Vic is an old design, dating back to 1979. The fuel tank design where it is mounted vertically behind the rear axle is a design unique to Ford full sized cars. Ford used this design since 1965. All Ford intermediate and compact RWD cars never used this design. GM and Chrysler RWD cars never used this design.

The problem is that almost all RWD full framed cars have the fuel tank mounted behind the axle, in the crumple zone, regardless of fuel tank style. The alledged issue with the Crown Vic is that when this area is crushed, the axles sharp components puncture the tank. The rear bolts for the parking brake cable, the frame buckling and the rear sway bar mounts on early Crown Vics have been sited as likely puncture areas. Ford took steps to eliminate these problem areas with a polymer sheild for ealier models and a suspension redesign in 1998 that removed some of the high risk bolts.

NHTSA conducted a study on the safety of the fuel tank design for the Crown Vic. Long story short the conclusion was as follows:

*The crash energy levels associated with post rear impact fuel tank failures in the CVPI vehicles are significantly greater than the levels in FMVSS 301 tests. (FMVSS are the rear end crash standards that all cars must meet, done at 30 MPH)

*Fuel tank failures during high-speed rear impacts can result from numerous causes in addition to the hex-headed bolt and U-brackets identified in the Ford TSB.

*Crash reports identify many causes for loss of fuel system integrity during a high-energy rear crash, such as puncture from a deformed frame rail, lower shock absorber supports, or stowed items in the trunk, hydrostatic rupture, and other causes.
Based on analysis of FARS data, the risk of fire per fatal rear crash in the subject vehicles is comparable to that of the GM B-body vehicle (Caprice).

*The vast majority of reported post rear crash fires in the subject vehicles (over 80%) occurred in CVPI vehicles, even though they constitute less than 15% of the total Panther vehicle production.

*The Florida Highway Patrol Study did not identify a difference between the post rear impact fire risk in CVPI vehicles and that of the Caprice police vehicles.

*Ford-sponsored testing indicates that the subject vehicles are not unique in their inability to maintain fuel tank integrity in at least one example of a severe rear impact crash.

*There have been numerous high-energy rear crashes involving CVPI vehicles within the scope of Ford's TSB that exhibited little or no fuel loss and no fire.

* The available information regarding fuel tank failure mode, the risk of fire per fatal crash, field performance, and crash testing indicate that the performance of the subject vehicle in high-energy rear crashes is not unlike that of the most comparable peer vehicle, the GM B-body

In other words, the Crown Vic is about as likely to catch fire than it's nearest comparable vehicle the Caprice in a high speed collision. Additionally, it seems the CVPI is more likely to cathch fire simply because it is more likely to be involved in a very high speed rear end collsion.

Bottom line though, placing the fuel tank behind the rear axle in the crumple zone is an old fashioned design and is not as safe as a tank placed in front on the axle.

Here are some pics from the study:

image004.gif


image003.gif





These are high speed rear end results (70 MPH)

image006.jpg


image007.jpg


Caprice for Comparison

image008.jpg


image009.jpg


Crown Vic and Caprice tank design

image005.gif


Overkill,

you seem to take any critism against Ford so personally. This discussion is about the Ford Crown Vic fuel tank design, and you bring in all these other cars fuel tank designs. They are not the issue it's the Crown Vic's tank. If we want to bring other cars into the discussion, lets not mention the 1980's Ford Fox body fuel tank design (don't get me wrong, I like these cars, I was just trying to make a point).
 
Originally Posted By: Oldswagon


Overkill,

you seem to take any critism against Ford so personally. This discussion is about the Ford Crown Vic fuel tank design, and you bring in all these other cars fuel tank designs. They are not the issue it's the Crown Vic's tank. If we want to bring other cars into the discussion, lets not mention the 1980's Ford Fox body fuel tank design (don't get me wrong, I like these cars, I was just trying to make a point).


If you read back, I specifically mentioned the Mustang as having poor tank placement as well.

Also, previous gen Caprices (similar vintage to my Lincoln) had a metal tank in the same location as the plastic tank depicted above.

Lots of cars have flaws, I have not taken this personally, rather just bringing up the fact that other vehicles, INCLUDING OTHER FORD VEHICLES have had the tank in a position that is much more susceptible to penetration or collapse in a rear-end collision than the Panther cars.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

If you read back, I specifically mentioned the Mustang as having poor tank placement as well.

Also, previous gen Caprices (similar vintage to my Lincoln) had a metal tank in the same location as the plastic tank depicted above.

Lots of cars have flaws, I have not taken this personally, rather just bringing up the fact that other vehicles, INCLUDING OTHER FORD VEHICLES have had the tank in a position that is much more susceptible to penetration or collapse in a rear-end collision than the Panther cars.


I apologize, I didn't see you mention the Fox Mustangs. The study compared the stats for the 1992-2001 Crown Vics, and 1985-1996 Caprices. This includes the metal fuel tank Caprices (they switched to plastic in 1991). Yes, we all know there are much worse fuel tank designs than the Panther's such as the Pinto (actutally more of a fuel neck design flaw) and 73-87 GM trucks.

And from the study:

For the Panther:

"A total of 18 fatalities are associated with the 26 known reports of Panther fires."

For B-body:

"ODI identified 11 reports including 6 (55%) law enforcement vehicles and 5 vehicles in civilian use. These reports span 11 calendar years from 1989 to 1999 and resulted in 6 fatalities and 5 injuries. No specific fuel tank failure mode information was provided with these reports."

(this study includes the older steel tank Caprices since in the 1989 and 1990 callander years these are the only b-bodies on the road, 1991-1999 includes both older in newer style Caprices).

So even though the study showed the Crown Vic and Caprice are "comparable" for fuel tank risk, there were over double the fuel tank fires, and triple the fatalies for the Panther.

That said, if I had to buy a new car, I'd be a Crown Vic in a heartbeat.
 
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