When to use an oil additive.

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Some of my work involves investigating expensive warranty claims, which was what got me interested in additives as they have a nasty habit of turning up in failed engines and auto boxes


Is the presence of additive because a user was trying to fix a genuine warranty problem that was already there, or is the additive always the cause of the problem?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: FoxS
Originally Posted By: skyship
Some of my work involves investigating expensive warranty claims, which was what got me interested in additives as they have a nasty habit of turning up in failed engines and auto boxes


Is the presence of additive because a user was trying to fix a genuine warranty problem that was already there, or is the additive always the cause of the problem?


Folks with an engine under warranty tend to go to their dealer if they have a problem, but for some reason some people read the snake oil advertising and think it's gospel or use some product because their friends use it. For some reason they are convinced that it's possible to improve on the performance of a major brand full synthetic oil without side effects, something the oil analysts find almost comical when you look at what is in the can of snake oil.

 

[Trajan]

What problem you think you have requires an OTC additive?

What do you think the people and companies who formulate oil missed that makes you go to an OTC oil additive?

What will said additive do to the add pack?

I stopped using them as I can't answer those questions.

And as a kreen pusher said about oil adds, and I'll paraphrase, "Leave them on the shelf. At the end of the day you're trying to turn a dog into a fox."

 

[Trav]

Why don't you post the link to that thread so we can all read it in context?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
What problem you think you have requires an OTC additive?

What do you think the people and companies who formulate oil missed that makes you go to an OTC oil additive?

What will said additive do to the add pack?

I stopped using them as I can't answer those questions.

And as a kreen pusher said about oil adds, and I'll paraphrase, "Leave them on the shelf. At the end of the day you're trying to turn a dog into a fox."


I might have used an oil thickner to help sell an old Ford many years ago and I have used pre OCI idle flushes, BUT the increased availability of High mileage (HM) oils that clean well, have enough Zinc and seal conditions, has reduced the need for snake oils a lot. There is no need for oil thickners as a greater range of engine oils is now available, including 5/50 and 10/60.
If you are a Moly addict there are even high Moly oils available from Liqui Moly and Redline, so there really is no need for oil chemistry experiments.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: Trajan
What problem you think you have requires an OTC additive?

What do you think the people and companies who formulate oil missed that makes you go to an OTC oil additive?

What will said additive do to the add pack?

I stopped using them as I can't answer those questions.

And as a kreen pusher said about oil adds, and I'll paraphrase, "Leave them on the shelf. At the end of the day you're trying to turn a dog into a fox."


I might have used an oil thickner to help sell an old Ford many years ago and I have used pre OCI idle flushes, BUT the increased availability of High mileage (HM) oils that clean well, have enough Zinc and seal conditions, has reduced the need for snake oils a lot. There is no need for oil thickners as a greater range of engine oils is now available, including 5/50 and 10/60.
If you are a Moly addict there are even high Moly oils available from Liqui Moly and Redline, so there really is no need for oil chemistry experiments.


So then the oil "thickener" helped sell the vehicle? My point is the additive had a use then. Others have uses too, and lots of people with success stories to back them up. Unfortunately there are some avid haters of additives here. Even though they never used some of these additives they hate so much, they have a lot to say about how they don't work, can't work, wreck engines, but have no proof to back them up. Then when they're directed to the UOA section and see good UOA reports with the use of some of these additives they come up with some B_S story to defend their position. Quite funny really. I'll give you this much, there are a few additives that are junk, and some where hyped here, with lots of unhappy users who bought into the hype. Spend some time searching this section and you'll see for yourself.

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
What problem you think you have requires an OTC additive?

What do you think the people and companies who formulate oil missed that makes you go to an OTC oil additive?

What will said additive do to the add pack?

I stopped using them as I can't answer those questions.

And as a kreen pusher said about oil adds, and I'll paraphrase, "Leave them on the shelf. At the end of the day you're trying to turn a dog into a fox."



I use two additives. Kreen and MMO (IN OIL) to clean when needed. Sometimes oil is not enough to fix years of neglect. As far as the others like moly adds and such, I just buy a good oil and trust its protecting my engine.
If you dig the other adds more power to ya, but I think a good oil is good enough for wear protection......but if its an oil burner on its last leg I will lucas tha sucker in a heartbeat!!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: electrolover

If you dig the other adds more power to ya, but I think a good oil is good enough for wear protection......but if its an oil burner on its last leg I will lucas tha sucker in a heartbeat!!

+1 I saw dealers I worked for add Lucas to unload a few oil burning, knockers. Even Lucas has a use in some applications.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
Originally Posted By: Trajan
What problem you think you have requires an OTC additive?

What do you think the people and companies who formulate oil missed that makes you go to an OTC oil additive?

What will said additive do to the add pack?

I stopped using them as I can't answer those questions.

And as a kreen pusher said about oil adds, and I'll paraphrase, "Leave them on the shelf. At the end of the day you're trying to turn a dog into a fox."



I use two additives. Kreen and MMO (IN OIL) to clean when needed. Sometimes oil is not enough to fix years of neglect. As far as the others like moly adds and such, I just buy a good oil and trust its protecting my engine.
If you dig the other adds more power to ya, but I think a good oil is good enough for wear protection......but if its an oil burner on its last leg I will lucas tha sucker in a heartbeat!!

If your engine is in good condition with low oil consumption and no leaks, just use a major brand full synthetic and it will do a good job keeping an engine clean unless the OCI is too long.
For older engines with high oil consumption or leaks, a major brand HM oil will do a good job of both cleaning and reducing oil consumption.
No need for any snake oils just because of the need to prevent sludge or varnish, all you have to do is keep the OCI sensible and avoid cheap Iffy lube or supermarket oils.

 

[electrolover]

Jiffy lubes use Pennzoil. And some of the best oils are sleepers like chevron supreme. Dude stop posting and start reading. Please!! Research bitog and you will find a wealth of knowledge.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Originally Posted By: Trajan
What problem you think you have requires an OTC additive?

What do you think the people and companies who formulate oil missed that makes you go to an OTC oil additive?

What will said additive do to the add pack?

I stopped using them as I can't answer those questions.

And as a kreen pusher said about oil adds, and I'll paraphrase, "Leave them on the shelf. At the end of the day you're trying to turn a dog into a fox."



I use two additives. Kreen and MMO (IN OIL) to clean when needed. Sometimes oil is not enough to fix years of neglect. As far as the others like moly adds and such, I just buy a good oil and trust its protecting my engine.
If you dig the other adds more power to ya, but I think a good oil is good enough for wear protection......but if its an oil burner on its last leg I will lucas tha sucker in a heartbeat!!

If your engine is in good condition with low oil consumption and no leaks, just use a major brand full synthetic and it will do a good job keeping an engine clean unless the OCI is too long.
For older engines with high oil consumption or leaks, a major brand HM oil will do a good job of both cleaning and reducing oil consumption.
No need for any snake oils just because of the need to prevent sludge or varnish, all you have to do is keep the OCI sensible and avoid cheap Iffy lube or supermarket oils.


Not everyone is fortunate enough to buy a new car, care for it from day one, and then be lucky enough not to have bought a car that has sludge issues, because of poor design. There are a few engines that people found out years later had sludge issues. So if you were not furtunate enough to be the original owner of a worry free engine and take good care of it, and end up buying a used vehicle with issues it might be time for an additive. Not everyone has your talent to rip an engine apart and do a manual clean up. Even you recommend idle flushes, they are on the "Skyship List Of Approved Additives" aren't they? Sorry dude not all of us take what you preach to us as Gospel, sad you haven't figured that out yet.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: electrolover

If you dig the other adds more power to ya, but I think a good oil is good enough for wear protection......but if its an oil burner on its last leg I will lucas tha sucker in a heartbeat!!

+1 I saw dealers I worked for add Lucas to unload a few oil burning, knockers. Even Lucas has a use in some applications.


There was an STP thickner epedemic in the UK about 20 odd years ago. Dodgy car dealers used it to silence rattlers, some folks used it to stop leaks and the real lunatic fringe used it as an alternative to an oil change. It resulted in an increase in car battery sales due to cold start problems and after a while the sales of various flushes soared because it was one great sludge former.
STP did a lot for the parts shops and scrap dealers. I suspect it also helped sales of new cars.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship


STP did a lot for the parts shops and scrap dealers. I suspect it also helped sales of new cars.


Not sure about that but STP along with LOS helped used car sales. LOL

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
Originally Posted By: Trajan
What problem you think you have requires an OTC additive?

What do you think the people and companies who formulate oil missed that makes you go to an OTC oil additive?

What will said additive do to the add pack?

I stopped using them as I can't answer those questions.

And as a kreen pusher said about oil adds, and I'll paraphrase, "Leave them on the shelf. At the end of the day you're trying to turn a dog into a fox."



I use two additives. Kreen and MMO (IN OIL) to clean when needed. Sometimes oil is not enough to fix years of neglect. As far as the others like moly adds and such, I just buy a good oil and trust its protecting my engine.
If you dig the other adds more power to ya, but I think a good oil is good enough for wear protection......but if its an oil burner on its last leg I will lucas tha sucker in a heartbeat!!

If I want oil adds, I'll use oil. It already has them.

Used to use that stuff in oil. Been two years since I went oil additive free. Posted an anecdote where I said that mmo silences a noisy lifter. And the mmo zealots instntly praised it without question. It didn't stay that way, but arx fixed it. A barrage of silence from the mmo mafia followed.

Use what you will, don't really care. But no one has yet taken up the challenge to prove to me that they work.

Certainly my 20 year old Buick LeSabre did fine without it. So did my 20 year old Nova.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Originally Posted By: Trajan
What problem you think you have requires an OTC additive?

What do you think the people and companies who formulate oil missed that makes you go to an OTC oil additive?

What will said additive do to the add pack?

I stopped using them as I can't answer those questions.

And as a kreen pusher said about oil adds, and I'll paraphrase, "Leave them on the shelf. At the end of the day you're trying to turn a dog into a fox."



I use two additives. Kreen and MMO (IN OIL) to clean when needed. Sometimes oil is not enough to fix years of neglect. As far as the others like moly adds and such, I just buy a good oil and trust its protecting my engine.
If you dig the other adds more power to ya, but I think a good oil is good enough for wear protection......but if its an oil burner on its last leg I will lucas tha sucker in a heartbeat!!

If I want oil adds, I'll use oil. It already has them.

Used to use that stuff in oil. Been two years since I went oil additive free. Posted an anecdote where I said that mmo silences a noisy lifter. And the mmo zealots instntly praised it without question. It didn't stay that way, but arx fixed it. A barrage of silence from the mmo mafia followed.

Use what you will, don't really care. But no one has yet taken up the challenge to prove to me that they work.

Certainly my 20 year old Buick LeSabre did fine without it. So did my 20 year old Nova.


Good to hear you are additive free, I had a chat with one of the German Volvo long life fanatics today who passed 900K km without removing the head of his diesel or failing an emissions test and I asked him if he was using Ceretec or anything special and was very surprised to hear he only uses Castrol Magnetec and BP (Aral) fuel. He then gave me an ear bending about what happens when you seal up the rings too well, as he said something I read in a document that pointed out that it can result in increased valve seat and guide wear. In other words you swap one type of wear for another and as he is a Dr Eng working for Merc R&D he is worth listening too, but his boss doen't seem to mind that he drives an old diesel Volvo.

 

[FoxS]

In what scenarios are these idle only flushes recommended.

And why are they apparently in widespread use by garages in Germany? I rarely see them in the US.

 

[Shannow]

I'll add a data point to idle flushes.

My first car was a Holden Torana, late 60s, about 20 years old when I got it, and it hadn't been serviced in 7 years. Oil was off the dipstick,and took 1/2L to read full (supposed to be a litre to get the same).

Took it home, and pulled the rocker cover off, and it was so badly sludged that each rocker had it's own groove in the sludge cake...I took two litres of black grease out of the rocker cover, took the side plates off and cleaned them.

Overfilled the sump with kero (couple of litres), and ran it at idle for 5 mins or so...drained out like diff fluid. Repeated.

Added a cheap 20W-40 (re-refined), and burned a litre in a few hundred miles the next week. Changed again to the cheap 20W-40 the following week, and it burned that too.

Thought the engine was wasted, but filled it next with 20W-50 Valvoline XLD, and it dropped to 1 litre every 3,000 miles, and only blew any smoke around valve bounce (I was 17, and the 138 c.i. six could do 90MPH).

No further problems with the car, and I sold it for 5 times what I paid after tidying it up.

Like I said a data point, but has always kept me interested in varnish/sludge, into my professional turbine life.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: FoxS
In what scenarios are these idle only flushes recommended.

And why are they apparently in widespread use by garages in Germany? I rarely see them in the US.


As far as I am aware none of the main dealers can use an idle flush because their use is not recommended by any manufacturer. The folks using idle flushes are independent garages and some Iffy lube chains.
If you take a vehicle with a sludged engine to a good garage or Iffy lube they should try and talk you into have the engine cleaned properly, but if you refuse some of them will try a short cut and use an idle flush after cleaning the sump and checking the oil pump screen filter. The independents can do pretty much what they like, but the Iffy lube chains are supposed to follow set procedures for different engine faults, although they don't always do that and I reported one place a few months ago for working on a petrol fuel tank within the main part of the garage, which is a serious breach of the terms of their insurance policy.
I did get an Iffy lube place to use an idle flush in my Volvo, although it turned out to be clean. Some classic car places use an idle only flush every OCI as a precaution with some known sludgers.

 

[Shannow]

Second data point is wildly different to the first.

We last year had an undergrad engineer complete an engineering thesis on varnish, varnish production, detection and monitoring using patch colorimetry (*), and removal...

Oil sample is taken, and diluted with standardised gasoline, and passed through a filter paper. Filter paper is then washed with toluene, to remove any oil residual, and the patch scanned. The colour change of the insoluble varnish can be trended over time, or a straight comparison between new and old made. (Our guy demonstrated that a decent flat bed scanner, calibrated properly can give nearly lab results, certainly good enough for site trending).

(*) Google "patch colorimetry", there weren't many hits two years ago, but there are loads now.

What's the point on this data point ?

Toluene doesn't dissolve the varnish in the filter pads...probably not so good as an idle flush.

 

[skyship]

I think some of the idle flushes are mostly kerosene, but It's tough to tell from a basic VOA what the basetock is.
The oil Bible folks list the following contents apart from Kerosene:
naphthalene, xylene, acetone and isopropanol alcohol.