When to use an oil additive.

[Mystic]

I am done at this posting. There is nothing useful here in my opinion.

The one thing I wish for is that people who want to post about oil supplements and engine cleaners be allowed to do so here at the Oil Additives Section. That is surely the reason this section exists.

I am no big fan of oil supplements myself. I think most are junk, worthless, and potentially even bad for a person's engine. I have said before and I will say again that a person should be able to drive any new car, truck, van or SUV a very long time just using good quality motor oil, reasonable OCIs, and other maintenance that needs to be done. About the only exceptions would be mechanical problems of some kind that caused sludge, sludge prone engines, and of course owner misuse.

But I also believe that there should be engine cleaners of some kind that can be used to clean an engine with high mileage and long use and also used cars that have been abused by their owners. This is my opinion and I am sticking to it. A decent cleaner of some kind that works would make it possible to use a dirty engine a longer period of time.

And I have had good experiences with some supplements, such as Lubegard products. And even some name brand companies that produce motor oil have had or have now various oil supplements. And there are useful supplements for various problems such as cars with leaking seals, older cars that required leaded fuel, etc.

The Oil Additives Section is for discussions about these various products in my opnion. I really do not need for somebody to lecture me from on top of the mountain. I can figure out for myself if I want to try an oil supplement or engine cleaner.

 

[Clevy]

I've had fuel consumption improvements with the liqui-moly MOS2 additive in every engine I've ever put it in. Some don't like it,personally I think it's great,and its cheap.
On hemi I found anti-treeze in the oil shortly after buying it. My heart sunk since I just bought it.
I changed the oil out,put the liqui-moly motor oil saver in,no mos2 this time. When I changed the oil last week I didn't see any anti-freeze I the oil. And the anti-freeze level has stabilized.
Cost for a reman hemi is 3500 delivered to my door. Cost to fix this gasket is 1500. Being a 260k engine it's not worth fixing the gasket. So the motor oil saver helped my gasket failure.
So tigs additive will prolong my engines now dated life,until I can put together the 3500 I need for an engine.
Yes additives have a place in the market as far as I'm concerned.

 

[linkbelt]

I can figure out for myself if I want to try an oil supplement or engine cleaner. [/quote]


I, also, can figure out for myself if I want to try a supplement/engine cleaner.
However, I am always interested to hear from someone who has used a product.
I like to know what others think --- whether I agree or not.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: linkbelt
I can figure out for myself if I want to try an oil supplement or engine cleaner.

I, also, can figure out for myself if I want to try a supplement/engine cleaner.
However, I am always interested to hear from someone who has used a product.
I like to know what others think --- whether I agree or not.


+1 There's nothing wrong with having an open mind, and seeing if people posting results, good or bad have an agenda. Then based on the information acquired decide if using the product would be beneficial to you or not.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: linkbelt
I can figure out for myself if I want to try an oil supplement or engine cleaner.

I, also, can figure out for myself if I want to try a supplement/engine cleaner.
However, I am always interested to hear from someone who has used a product.
I like to know what others think --- whether I agree or not.


+1 There's nothing wrong with having an open mind, and seeing if people posting results, good or bad have an agenda. Then based on the information acquired decide if using the product would be beneficial to you or not.


Nothing wrong with this in my book either.

Keeping an open mind is fundamental advice at its best.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
What the oil additive section needs is for people to again be allowed to post about their experiences with various oil supplements and engine cleaners. People can make up their own minds about whether an oil supplement is worth trying or not. Too many anti-oil supplement people have come to this section and tried to talk from on high on the mountain down to the oil supplement and engine cleaner people.


So who is saying that you can't?

No one is saying that you can't. But you don't want anyone to question anyone who does use them.

You don't want the scrutiny. But you're going to get it. So you'll have to deal with it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan

Originally Posted By: Mystic
What the oil additive section needs is for people to again be allowed to post about their experiences with various oil supplements and engine cleaners. People can make up their own minds about whether an oil supplement is worth trying or not. Too many anti-oil supplement people have come to this section and tried to talk from on high on the mountain down to the oil supplement and engine cleaner people.


So who is saying that you can't?

No one is saying that you can't. But you don't want anyone to question anyone who does use them.

You don't want the scrutiny. But you're going to get it. So you'll have to deal with it.


Yea for starters you'll get it from Trajan. Especially if its Kreen or MMO, and you claim it worked.

 

[Trav]

Yep and you will hear him scream foul if someone questions that snake oil known as ARX.

 

[Mystic]

Trajan seems to like to follow me around. I appreciate the attention and I almost feel like becoming a Kreen and MMO fan.

I will give Auto-RX credit for seeming to stop a seal leak. Otherwise I have never seen any proof that Auto-RX actually cleans the insides of an engine.

We can't have a double standard here. Every product should be studied to see if it really works, regardless if that product is Auto-RX, Kreen, MMO, Amsoil Engine Flush, or whatever.

 

[SteveSRT8]

The problem is you have posters with a specific agenda. I tried ARX with an open mind (and wallet). Used it repeatedly EXACTLY per the instructions and got zero results.

And I didn't squeal because I had a speck of varnish that was miniscule. I had real carbon and deposit issues. Then ARX refused any warranty and said I did something wrong. So that was easy, they'll never get me again.

Kreen simply did what I wanted. Quickly, too. Then I used some Aerokroil. That's how I am, treat me good and I'll buy some more. I do not get paid or get free products, nor do I care what others want, do, or think.

As I've said before the very nature of kreen/ARX, etc., is likely to get them used in very badly messed up cars that they simply cannot help. That's why you TRY it first.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The problem is you have posters with a specific agenda. I tried ARX with an open mind (and wallet). Used it repeatedly EXACTLY per the instructions and got zero results.

And I didn't squeal because I had a speck of varnish that was miniscule. I had real carbon and deposit issues. Then ARX refused any warranty and said I did something wrong. So that was easy, they'll never get me again.

Kreen simply did what I wanted. Quickly, too. Then I used some Aerokroil. That's how I am, treat me good and I'll buy some more. I do not get paid or get free products, nor do I care what others want, do, or think.

As I've said before the very nature of kreen/ARX, etc., is likely to get them used in very badly messed up cars that they simply cannot help. That's why you TRY it first.


Good points Steve. Not all products will work for everyone, but if a company stands behind their warranty and refunds money like they claim they will, that's important. I have no doubt in my mind the Kano people will stand behind their satisfaction guarantee 100%, the other company you mentioned? Well we already know the answer to that.

 

[Mystic]

Skyship maybe you should tell us exactly what your credentials are. Are you a research chemist? Do you have a degree in chemical enginneering? I doubt very much that the research teams working on new motor oils would share information with anybody unless a person was authorized to have the information. They probably sign non disclosure agreements.

It is amazing to me that you have this inside information on new high tech synthetic oils under development and that moly added to those oils will cause sludge in extended use. It seems to me that you either have to be a member of one of those research teams or somebody on one or more of those research teams is going to be in trouble for disclosing confidential information.

 

[skyship]

At present I am working for a UK company, but based in Germany and I act as a go between when there is a product liability insurance issue that results in a dispute between manufacturer, dealership, vehicle owner and insurance brokers. Some of my work involves investigating expensive warranty claims, which was what got me interested in additives as they have a nasty habit of turning up in failed engines and auto boxes.
My work brings me into regular contact with the geeks at a very good fluid analysis lab, senior engineers, auto R&D geeks and lawyers. Luckily if I want to know something I can ask one of them for an answer if I don't know myself, although apart from local dealer I don't deal with any petrol engine issues, as they are kind of rare in new vehicle terms. My background is in marine diesels, so I have only worked on some old Ford V6's and a few Porsch engines in the way of gas guzzlers.
What always surprises me is why folks use oil additives as a preventative or performance enhancer, when they would be far better off changing the oil type they are using. If you are faced with a problem that is beyond economic repair then a last ditch use of an oil additive is worth trying. For example if your head gasket is failing then using both a coolant stop leak and an engine oil stop leak together might just seal it if you can't afford a repair.
I can assure you that oil additives cause a lot more harm than good, which is why manufacturers keep warning owners not to use them, although the major oil companies like LM do seem to make safer and more effective products than the back street boys.
Lubeguard in the US seem to be better than the rest and I would point out that there are far more coolant and transmission additives with current approvals than engine oil additives.

If you want to read more about additives try this article:

OIL ADDITIVES

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: skyship
At present I am working for a UK company, but based in Germany and I act as a go between when there is a product liability insurance issue that results in a dispute between manufacturer, dealership, vehicle owner and insurance brokers. Some of my work involves investigating expensive warranty claims, which was what got me interested in additives as they have a nasty habit of turning up in failed engines and auto boxes.
My work brings me into regular contact with the geeks at a very good fluid analysis lab, senior engineers, auto R&D geeks and lawyers. Luckily if I want to know something I can ask one of them for an answer if I don't know myself, although apart from local dealer I don't deal with any petrol engine issues, as they are kind of rare in new vehicle terms. My background is in marine diesels, so I have only worked on some old Ford V6's and a few Porsch engines in the way of gas guzzlers.
What always surprises me is why folks use oil additives as a preventative or performance enhancer, when they would be far better off changing the oil type they are using. If you are faced with a problem that is beyond economic repair then a last ditch use of an oil additive is worth trying. For example if your head gasket is failing then using both a coolant stop leak and an engine oil stop leak together might just seal it if you can't afford a repair.
I can assure you that oil additives cause a lot more harm than good, which is why manufacturers keep warning owners not to use them, although the major oil companies like LM do seem to make safer and more effective products than the back street boys.
Lubeguard in the US seem to be better than the rest and I would point out that there are far more coolant and transmission additives with current approvals than engine oil additives.

If you want to read more about additives try this article:

OIL ADDITIVES



If you want to read more about oil additives stick around bitog stop bashing threads. If you listen for a while you might actually learn something

 

[skyship]

This is what Blackstones say about the difficulties caused by additives, which is of interest if you want to do start doing UOA's:

There are many types of after-market additives you can buy. Some contain unusual compounds that can make it difficult for our analysts to determine if your engine has a mechanical problem. One additive we know of contains a lead-copper compound. But lead and copper are metals common to bearing inserts. If you're using an additive with lead and/or copper in it, it is difficult to tell whether those elements are coming from the additive or a problem with the bearings.

Another type of additive we often run across contains silicone (which is read as silicon by our spectrometer). Silicon is often found in the oil when a fault exists at air filtration. If we do not know there is an additive in use, it can be difficult to diagnose true problems that may be producing high silicon.

If you are interested in having your engine oil analyzed by a quality lab, you will receive a better analysis if you avoid oil and after-market additives that use elements we need to see clearly to do a thorough analysis.

Comment:
I can't think of an additive with Copper and Lead in it, although quite a few have Sodium or Silicon in them. Anyone know which one has Copper or Lead?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship

Comment:
I can't think of an additive with Copper and Lead in it, although quite a few have Sodium or Silicon in them. Anyone know which one has Copper or Lead?


IIRC it is called Restore Engine Treatment [or something like that]. It was used to fix clunkers with scored cylinder walls, the soft metals would fill voids in scored cylinders. The rings would work it into the voids. It IMO is a last resort for some users who didn't want to tear an engine down, and were looking to boost compression a bit and slow oil use. I know a few people over the years who used it with good results, in beaters. The only question I'd ask is why would anyone with an oil burning pig get a UOA done on an engine brought back from the dead, soon to be junked?

 

[Mystic]

So in other words Skyship you are an investigator for liability insurance claims and warranty claims. You are not a chemist or chemical engineer and you are not directly involved in the development of new motor oils.

My guess is that if an owner used any kind of additive at all in a warranty claim that would be used to void the warranty. Even if the additive really had nothing to do with whatever engine failure took place.

And I have not bought a new car for quite a while but my experience has been that new car dealerships always have various oil supplements they are quite willing to sell to new car owners-BG products, a graphite containing oil supplement, etc. If oil supplements are so bad then they need to totally stop new car dealerships from selling oil supplements themselves.

Moly is used in various high quality motor oils and I would like to see proof that it can't be used in new synthetic motor oils. The reason they are cutting down on moly is probably because they have found other oil additives that can do the same job and cost less. And the moly they use in motor oils is not just moly dumped into an engine and is professionally developed.

I think Skyship you need to spend some more time in garages. You did not seem to know what kind of engine flushes were used in German garages. And when you said that some LM engine flush was being used outside of the garages so that there could be no liability claims that was an incredible statement.

And you said that YOU concocted engine cleaners for marine engines. I find that surprising for somebody so against additives.

Somehow it just does not seem very likely to me that an investigator for insurance and liability claims is going to be able to get extremely close to a research team developing a new synthetic motor oil. And the people developing those new motor oils probably have to sign some sort of nondisclosure agreements. They are not likely going to be talking about their research to outsiders. A competitor could get hold of that information and endanger millions of dollars of research.

The people you talk to are probably at some lower level and involved in trying to determine what was in the oil of a car that had engine failure. If any oil supplement of any kind was found in the oil where an engine failure had taken place it could be used to void the warranty. Every time the warranty can be voided it says the car dealerships and insurance people money-correct?

So if at all possible they want to find some way to void the warranty.

 

[demarpaint]

Mystic- The only additives he likes are the additives he approves. Nothing else works.

 

[skyship]

Reply after each section.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
So in other words Skyship you are an investigator for liability insurance claims and warranty claims. You are not a chemist or chemical engineer and you are not directly involved in the development of new motor oils.
Sort of correct, as I determine the type of failure and the responsible party, which might include the manufacturer.

My guess is that if an owner used any kind of additive at all in a warranty claim that would be used to void the warranty. Even if the additive really had nothing to do with whatever engine failure took place.
Not true as there has to be a sound engineering basis for a rejected claim.
And I have not bought a new car for quite a while but my experience has been that new car dealerships always have various oil supplements they are quite willing to sell to new car owners-BG products, a graphite containing oil supplement, etc. If oil supplements are so bad then they need to totally stop new car dealerships from selling oil supplements themselves.
The Iffy lube places sell additives, but no dealer sells them unless they have a full manufacturers approval.
Moly is used in various high quality motor oils and I would like to see proof that it can't be used in new synthetic motor oils. The reason they are cutting down on moly is probably because they have found other oil additives that can do the same job and cost less. And the moly they use in motor oils is not just moly dumped into an engine and is professionally developed.
The alternatives to Moly are more expensive, even cheap oils contain Moly. The cheapest Moly is used in the snake oils only, not by major oil companies.

I think Skyship you need to spend some more time in garages. You did not seem to know what kind of engine flushes were used in German garages. And when you said that some LM engine flush was being used outside of the garages so that there could be no liability claims that was an incredible statement.
The chemical you are talking about is called a scourer not a flush and as they are more hazardous products and the one in question is not sold in the US I avoided mentioning it. I spend about half my working hours in garages.

And you said that YOU concocted engine cleaners for marine engines. I find that surprising for somebody so against additives.
No, I just used a local product.
Somehow it just does not seem very likely to me that an investigator for insurance and liability claims is going to be able to get extremely close to a research team developing a new synthetic motor oil. And the people developing those new motor oils probably have to sign some sort of nondisclosure agreements. They are not likely going to be talking about their research to outsiders. A competitor could get hold of that information and endanger millions of dollars of research.
I only send engineering reports to the insurance folks, I don't get directly involved and my contacts are oil lab related and do detailed fluid analysis work for the auto industry, not the oil companies.

The people you talk to are probably at some lower level and involved in trying to determine what was in the oil of a car that had engine failure. If any oil supplement of any kind was found in the oil where an engine failure had taken place it could be used to void the warranty. Every time the warranty can be voided it says the car dealerships and insurance people money-correct?
Lab reports do get used to void warranties, but they are also used to ID manufacturing or component faults.

So if at all possible they want to find some way to void the warranty.
Not really, but if the owner or operator of what might be a very expensive commercial vehicle has done something silly like use the wrong oil or fail to change it, then the warranty should not be valid.

 

[Mystic]

Well, I take in than that BG products have manufacturers approval because the last time I bought a new car the dealership was trying to get people to buy BG products. Of course, that was several years ago.

If I remember correctly Skyship you said that you concocted your own engine cleaners for marine engines. I could look it up.

And if any oil supplement was found in the engine oil of a new car that had experienced engine failure that would probably be used to void the warranty.