I believe my new Hyundai says in the manual to drain the factory fill ATF at 60,000 miles ... Is there a benefit to doing a drain and fill (as often the case with oil & filter) at say 10,000 miles due to metal particles , etc. from transmission break in ? Thanks in advance ...
When to Drain Factory Fill ATF ?
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JTK
$100 Site Donor 2025
I would wait until 3yrs or ~36K miles for the first drain/fill of an AT.
My 2014 Altima still has it's original Trans fill in it @ 40,000 miles. I plan to have the dealer do it @ 50,000 miles, since it's still under warranty.
IMHO, 10,000 miles is FAR too early.
IMHO, 10,000 miles is FAR too early.
Kestas
Staff member
I personally think 20K is a good point to change out the fluid with a complete exchange. Somewhere in the past I remember 20K is about the point where the transmission has finished much of its break-in. It's good to get the debris out of there so it doesn't continue damaging the bearings and gear teeth.
Modern automatic transmissions with their "lifetime" fills are a killer on bearings, which suffer and sometimes fail from excessive debris denting. This is compounded by the fact that transmission designers are demanding more from bearings than in the past.
Bearing damage from debris denting is continuous and additive. It's good to put a stop to it as soon as practical.
Modern automatic transmissions with their "lifetime" fills are a killer on bearings, which suffer and sometimes fail from excessive debris denting. This is compounded by the fact that transmission designers are demanding more from bearings than in the past.
Bearing damage from debris denting is continuous and additive. It's good to put a stop to it as soon as practical.
I have a question on this, partly philosophical, but I am interested in hearing others' reactions.
Many (my self included) change out engine oil and differential fluids early. Yet people in this thread, (and I include myself in this) say not to change factory fill ATF until 50K miles or so.
Why? All the reasons we give for changing out engine oil and differential fluids are certainly applicable for ATF as well, yet we seem to be mostly in agreement not to change ATF too early.
Is it because ATF is harder to change, or is there some other reason?
Many (my self included) change out engine oil and differential fluids early. Yet people in this thread, (and I include myself in this) say not to change factory fill ATF until 50K miles or so.
Why? All the reasons we give for changing out engine oil and differential fluids are certainly applicable for ATF as well, yet we seem to be mostly in agreement not to change ATF too early.
Is it because ATF is harder to change, or is there some other reason?
Search out the posts of member Jim Allen from Ohio about automatic transmission fluid changes: https://www.google.com/search?q=Jim+Allen+site%3Awwwbobistheoilguy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=Jim+Allen+ATF+site:bobistheoilguy.com
For instance, in this thread: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2605511/3 he states:
"a) No time limit. Oil can't tell time so, within reasonable periods, time is not an issue. Also, the first interval is 5-10K, not 10-15K. As I said, the first change is the most important because the trans generates 75% of it's lifetime of contaminants in that first interval and it needs to be dumped or filtered. I didn't pull that number from my heinie. It comes from a pair of engineers, Eleftherakis & Khalil, that started doing studies on trans contamination in the '80s and are doing it still. The short version is that after analyzing thousands of trans samples, they revealed a lot of information (including the stat above) on trans fluid and as a direct result, the OEMs have improved drastically their assembly processes and filtration."
Since his recommendations are based on "older" studies, I wonder if today's manufacturing improvements result in less break in wear and if the first interval can be pushed out?
Here's another thread outlining Jim's thoughts: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2271631
"It's clear to me that many failures are due to contamination. If you want documented information on failures and contamination, go to SAE.org and research papers by engineers Eleftherakis and Khalil (E & K). I would refer you to three papers (there are others); 2001-01-0867 "Automatic Transmission Hydraulic Cleanliness" (Nieuwland & Droste), 99PC-418 "Optimizing Automatic Transmission Filtration" (Eleftherakis & Khalil), 900561 "Development of a Lab Test Contaminant for Transmissions" (Eleftherakis & Khalil).
It doesn't really matter whether you change the oil or add better filtration, the same end result is achieved... namely the elimination of contaminants and the extension of tranny life. The first change is the most important as, according to the years of testing done by E&K, 75% of the contaminants developed by an automatic in it's lifetime are present in the first 5K miles... either from built-in manufacturing debris or break-in. The difference is that, if you change the oil when the contamination level of the oil reached it's limit, the oils itself is in pretty good shape yet. Additional filtration is a much an oil life extender as a tranny life extender.
After sampling the oil in thousands of automatics in service, they found that the average trans with 70K or more miles that has not had a service contains approximately 263 mg/l (milligrams per liter) of contaminants, 90 percent of which is metallic. Of those metallic particles, 51 percent are ferrous (iron/steel), 21 percent copper, 11 percent aluminum and 7 percent lead. The particles range in size from 5 to 80 microns, about 82 percent of them larger than 5 microns.
Long term, the metallic particles cause wear on the pump vanes/housing and on bearings and bushings, but valves don't like debris either and that's where the shorter term problems can come from. A chunk of debris can score the bore of a valve and cause it to leak, or jam outright. I don't have to tell you what a metallic particle will do to a rubber seal or o-ring. With the advent of electronic valves, a new problem was created. What is an electronically controlled valve? An electromagnet! Magnets attract ferrous particles, so the iron in the trans is gravitating to those areas and causing valve malfunctions to occur even sooner. Once the valves start to malfunction, you get reduced pressures or delayed shifts, all of which cause extra wear on the clutches. Often it's so slow and imperceptible that the driver doesn't feel it until it gets really bad. That might be at 100K miles, so he says, "Oh well" and has the trans rebuilt when with some care, that trans might have outlasted the car. Sometimes there is so much manufacturing grunge (or remanufacturing... rebuilt trans have the same trouble) in the trans that it fails under warranty (very common).
Thing is, if you can keep the contaminants under control, you can greatly extend the reliability of the trans and the life of the oil. I interviewed Abe Khalil for a project and he said the first thing he does with a new car of his own is change the trans oil and filter (within about 5K miles). According to him, that eliminates 90 percent of the potential problems down the road."
For instance, in this thread: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2605511/3 he states:
"a) No time limit. Oil can't tell time so, within reasonable periods, time is not an issue. Also, the first interval is 5-10K, not 10-15K. As I said, the first change is the most important because the trans generates 75% of it's lifetime of contaminants in that first interval and it needs to be dumped or filtered. I didn't pull that number from my heinie. It comes from a pair of engineers, Eleftherakis & Khalil, that started doing studies on trans contamination in the '80s and are doing it still. The short version is that after analyzing thousands of trans samples, they revealed a lot of information (including the stat above) on trans fluid and as a direct result, the OEMs have improved drastically their assembly processes and filtration."
Since his recommendations are based on "older" studies, I wonder if today's manufacturing improvements result in less break in wear and if the first interval can be pushed out?
Here's another thread outlining Jim's thoughts: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2271631
"It's clear to me that many failures are due to contamination. If you want documented information on failures and contamination, go to SAE.org and research papers by engineers Eleftherakis and Khalil (E & K). I would refer you to three papers (there are others); 2001-01-0867 "Automatic Transmission Hydraulic Cleanliness" (Nieuwland & Droste), 99PC-418 "Optimizing Automatic Transmission Filtration" (Eleftherakis & Khalil), 900561 "Development of a Lab Test Contaminant for Transmissions" (Eleftherakis & Khalil).
It doesn't really matter whether you change the oil or add better filtration, the same end result is achieved... namely the elimination of contaminants and the extension of tranny life. The first change is the most important as, according to the years of testing done by E&K, 75% of the contaminants developed by an automatic in it's lifetime are present in the first 5K miles... either from built-in manufacturing debris or break-in. The difference is that, if you change the oil when the contamination level of the oil reached it's limit, the oils itself is in pretty good shape yet. Additional filtration is a much an oil life extender as a tranny life extender.
After sampling the oil in thousands of automatics in service, they found that the average trans with 70K or more miles that has not had a service contains approximately 263 mg/l (milligrams per liter) of contaminants, 90 percent of which is metallic. Of those metallic particles, 51 percent are ferrous (iron/steel), 21 percent copper, 11 percent aluminum and 7 percent lead. The particles range in size from 5 to 80 microns, about 82 percent of them larger than 5 microns.
Long term, the metallic particles cause wear on the pump vanes/housing and on bearings and bushings, but valves don't like debris either and that's where the shorter term problems can come from. A chunk of debris can score the bore of a valve and cause it to leak, or jam outright. I don't have to tell you what a metallic particle will do to a rubber seal or o-ring. With the advent of electronic valves, a new problem was created. What is an electronically controlled valve? An electromagnet! Magnets attract ferrous particles, so the iron in the trans is gravitating to those areas and causing valve malfunctions to occur even sooner. Once the valves start to malfunction, you get reduced pressures or delayed shifts, all of which cause extra wear on the clutches. Often it's so slow and imperceptible that the driver doesn't feel it until it gets really bad. That might be at 100K miles, so he says, "Oh well" and has the trans rebuilt when with some care, that trans might have outlasted the car. Sometimes there is so much manufacturing grunge (or remanufacturing... rebuilt trans have the same trouble) in the trans that it fails under warranty (very common).
Thing is, if you can keep the contaminants under control, you can greatly extend the reliability of the trans and the life of the oil. I interviewed Abe Khalil for a project and he said the first thing he does with a new car of his own is change the trans oil and filter (within about 5K miles). According to him, that eliminates 90 percent of the potential problems down the road."
I understand there is a lot of initial wear material in the FF transmission fluid in the first 10,000 to 20,000 miles of use and getting this out helps with the life of the transmission. Of course this matters if you are planning on keeping the vehicle for long time like we do. I "inherited" my wife's 2005 Explorer, she purchased new, with now almost 194,000 miles that had the ATF changed every 25,000 to 30,000 miles, mostly full fluid exchange with a pan drop and filter change. And recently just a pan drop and filter exchange because the fluid was so clean. So I spent ~$700 on transmission fluid maintenance and at 194,000 miles it shifts like new. A lot less expensive than a $5,000 transmission replacement. For her new 2017 Explorer with a drain plug and non serviceable filter we're going to do a drain and fill at 10,000 miles and a second at 20,000 miles. After that it'll be every 25,000-30,000 for the drain and fill. We keep our vehicles for a long time so it pays to maintain them.
Whimsey
Whimsey
On my Honda a drain and fill replaces about 40% of the fluid. I do a drain and fill every 25-30k miles. My car has a drain plug and a dipstick so it is super easy to do.
If you are doing it yourself it is pretty cheap. I bought my car with 35k miles on it and did a drain/fill right away. If I was you I would do a drain and fill around 10k and then 30k after that.
If you are doing it yourself it is pretty cheap. I bought my car with 35k miles on it and did a drain/fill right away. If I was you I would do a drain and fill around 10k and then 30k after that.
If you are keeping the vehicle as long as possible change the oil and filter sooner than later. I worked on forklifts and a company with ten of the exact same forklifts we cared for since new 5 forklifts had their oil and filter changed the first 2000 hours and the other 5 didn't due to management change. The 5 that did not have their oil and filter changed at 2000 hours all failed after 10,000 hours the 5 that had their oil and filters change just once at 200 hours were fine. The company bought 10 new forklifts. We have seen the forklift s run 30,000 hours with out engine or trans filters.
MolaKule is a proponent of early changes, then normal intervals. I've been following his advice. My Honda got a 10k service, then the normal every 50k. 90% highway miles on this car. The filters are not easy.
The Ford wasn't mine until 20k. Changed it, with a filter, then again at 30k. Will do 30k from now on following the severe service interval as I'm running near GVWR.
The Ford wasn't mine until 20k. Changed it, with a filter, then again at 30k. Will do 30k from now on following the severe service interval as I'm running near GVWR.
IMO, there is a benefit to doing it early with all the [censored] that came out of my Subaru differentials and transmission in 2012. Metal particles are inevitable so I see nothing wrong with flushing them out sooner than later. My engine oil was changed at 2,000 miles, differentials at 5,000 miles and transmssion serviced at 10,000 miles.
When? NEVER if you are like many people who simply trade in before blackened chunks of sludge and glazed clutches cause catastrophic failure.
But then how could we weird out the used car salesmen on the test-drive listening to every little rattle and whine coming from the engine bay, trying to avoid buying someones abused hooptie that will soon need a trans.
Change early, change often.
But then how could we weird out the used car salesmen on the test-drive listening to every little rattle and whine coming from the engine bay, trying to avoid buying someones abused hooptie that will soon need a trans.
Change early, change often.
If Hyundai says to change it at 60k, change it at 60k
OP here - thanks for the replies ... New Hyndai has NO ATF dipstick . It has some sort of two stage bubble level underneath with a valve to bleed off excess ATF until the bubble level looks right - I haven't found a DIY instructions / video yet on such transmission drain & fills but I'm not looking forward to doing it ! Wish Hyundai would have stayed with the traditional dipstick above and drain plug underneath !
*Forgot to note that this Hyundai comes FF with synthetic ATF (SP-IV) so not sure if that means anything in terms of a first pre-emptive drain & fill ?
*Forgot to note that this Hyundai comes FF with synthetic ATF (SP-IV) so not sure if that means anything in terms of a first pre-emptive drain & fill ?
The new fluid designation is SP4-M. If you find a cheap source for it, please share. The lowest I can find it is about $50 a gallon.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sp4-M&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Last month when I was investigating SP4-M fluid change at local Kia, Hyundai, and Jeep dealers, I was surprised that they ALL use BG services. Go figure.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sp4-M&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Last month when I was investigating SP4-M fluid change at local Kia, Hyundai, and Jeep dealers, I was surprised that they ALL use BG services. Go figure.
Originally Posted By: Jimzz
I like to do 30-33k drain and fills.
That's gotta take a while.
I like to do 30-33k drain and fills.
That's gotta take a while.
Not to mention he must buy by the pallet.
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