When is it NOT ok to change the ATF?

[weebl]

Originally Posted By: Voltmaster
some cars never recommend ATF change for life span of the car ....


If you believe that, then I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

Automakers are moving to "lifetime" fills of transmission fluid, and that has nothing to do with longevity of the vehicle. These fluids have been designed to be marginal at best, if never changed, by the time the warranty is up, all so that the manufacturer can claim lower maintenance costs, and use that as a selling feature. The uninformed masses don't know any better, and for those who trade every few years, they don't even notice. The failures will occur out of warranty. But waiting until that late to change, the damage is likely done, as unnecessary wear from spent fluid will have been taking place far before a catastrophic failure would have occurred. Those who are interested in keeping their vehicles well beyond warranty are best advised to change these "lifetime" fluids at a reasonable service interval.

As for an aged transmission that has never had its fluid changed, I am certainly on the fence there. Yes, if a fluid change prompts the failure, it was going to fail anyway. But for someone trying to squeeze life out of an old beater, maybe not changing the fluid would yield another 10,000 to 20,000 miles before failure.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
Auto transmission service or maintenance I have never done. So for someone as stupid as me, can someone explain what needs to be done? I can assume changing the fluid, but is that done by some type of pump or is the actual pan dropped?


If your transmission has a media filter then it should be changed. The pan needs to be dropped (unbolted) to do that. You may have a drain plug to make it not quite as messy. After that you can use the transmission's own pump to move the fluid to do a "cooler line flush". Or do 3 or 4 drain & fills of the pan (after filter change). Look on the net or Amsoil website to see if your transmission has a screen or media filter. You can also install a drain plug with the pan off to make it easier next time. A $20 Magnefine inline filter is a good investment also.

 

[clarklawnscape]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: GROUCHO MARX
I think lot of shops won't touch a high mileage car because if there's a subsequent problem, they'll be blamed.

That statement is why a lot of shops will do a transmission flush, but they won't change the filter. A lawyer is easily able to convince an uninformed jury (or clueless judge) that a filter change destroyed the transmission, but if the shops says that all they did was change the fluid, the jury will side with them.

A jury trial over a transmission? Im not doubting you, as I dont know. But that sounds funny.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Clutch pack material floating around provides the necessary friction. New fluid means loss of this material and as a result slippage. This is what I was told. NOW I was also told that todays transmissions just need to be reset so the mechtronics can make the necessary calibration.

In that case, brand new off the lot transmissions wouldn't work.
clutch material would wear off but remain suspended in fluid. Thus what was meant.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: clarklawnscape
Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: GROUCHO MARX
I think lot of shops won't touch a high mileage car because if there's a subsequent problem, they'll be blamed.

That statement is why a lot of shops will do a transmission flush, but they won't change the filter. A lawyer is easily able to convince an uninformed jury (or clueless judge) that a filter change destroyed the transmission, but if the shops says that all they did was change the fluid, the jury will side with them.

A jury trial over a transmission? Im not doubting you, as I dont know. But that sounds funny.

LOL

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
Auto transmission service or maintenance I have never done. So for someone as stupid as me, can someone explain what needs to be done? I can assume changing the fluid, but is that done by some type of pump or is the actual pan dropped?

Billy, this link is for you. It shows the step-by-step of how to change the transmission fluid. It is complete and it goes into excruciating detail. Use shortcuts as appropriate.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1744814#Post1744814

 

[BillyTheKid]

Thank you!

 

[GC4lunch]

Originally Posted By: buster
I often hear people/places claim you shouldn't change the ATF after "x" amount of miles.


Although I do not doubt that you recall hearing people claiming that you shouldn't change the fluid in old automatic transmissions, I have never heard anyone make that claim. What I have heard is that you should not flush an automatic transmission after "x" amount of miles. Flushing is different from changing, though changing is a part of the flushing procedure. The reason to avoid flushing old transmissions is that it puts fluid through the lines under pressure, which is much more likely to dislodge crud than simply draining by gravity flow (as in a mere change) does.

We are just completing a "times three" change of ATF on our Mazda6 at 85,000 miles. The total capacity of the system, including the AT cooler, on our car is 9.7 quarts, and the filter (I am told it has one) is permanent and nonremovable. The transmission was flushed at 30,000 miles and Valvoline MaxLife (the pre-2008, M-V Type M5 compatible, version) put in; 55,000 miles later, the MaxLife had turned brown.

Four weeks ago, our mechanic removed the drain plug from the transmission and 3.5 quarts (only) drained out -- the remaining 6.2 quarts remained in the torque converter and the cooler -- and (after the drain plug was put back in) the transmission was topped off with 3.5 quarts of Red Line D4. At that point, the ATF mix in the transmission was 64 percent old MaxLife and 36 percent Red Line.

Two weeks later, after driving a couple or few hundred miles, our mechanic repeated the procedure, again draining and replenishing 3.5 quarts (about 1.3 quarts of the mixed ATF that was drained was the new Red Line), and after stage 2, the fluid mixture was 59 percent new Red Line and 41 percent old MaxLife. We drove with that for two weeks, getting it well mixed up.

Stage 3 (this coming Monday) will repeat the 3.5 quart drain (of which about 2.1 quarts will be the new Red Line), this time replenishing with one bottle of LubeGard red (~10 fluid ounces) and topping off with a little less than three quarts of Red Line. This is the last round; going forward, the mixture will be about 67.4+ percent new Red Line, 26.1 percent old MaxLife, and 6.4+ percent LubeGard.

Even after "throwing out" about 3.4 quarts of the new Red Line ATF in stages 2 and 3, we will have put into the fill port a total of just under ten quarts of Red Line (plus the bottle of LubeGard) in the three stages. The full flush that we performed at 30,000 miles consumed 16 quarts (four gallons) of MaxLife, six quarts (a gallon and a half) of which went straight to the used oil recycler.

 

[tig1]

A trans with many miles on the fluid should not be back flushed. A simple pan drop and filter change isn't a problem.

 

[Towncivilian]

Has anybody actually seen any machine that forces fluid through the transmission at high pressure, either forwards or backwards? Do "power flushes" exist? Aren't flush machines essentially bladders to contain old and new fluid, and use the transmission's own pump? How is there any possibility of damage here?

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Although I do not doubt that you recall hearing people claiming that you shouldn't change the fluid in old automatic transmissions, I have never heard anyone make that claim. What I have heard is that you should not flush an automatic transmission after "x" amount of miles. Flushing is different from changing, though changing is a part of the flushing procedure. The reason to avoid flushing old transmissions is that it puts fluid through the lines under pressure, which is much more likely to dislodge crud than simply draining by gravity flow (as in a mere change) does.

We are just completing a "times three" change of ATF on our Mazda6 at 85,000 miles. The total capacity of the system, including the AT cooler, on our car is 9.7 quarts, and the filter (I am told it has one) is permanent and nonremovable. The transmission was flushed at 30,000 miles and Valvoline MaxLife (the pre-2008, M-V Type M5 compatible, version) put in; 55,000 miles later, the MaxLife had turned brown.

Four weeks ago, our mechanic removed the drain plug from the transmission and 3.5 quarts (only) drained out -- the remaining 6.2 quarts remained in the torque converter and the cooler -- and (after the drain plug was put back in) the transmission was topped off with 3.5 quarts of Red Line D4. At that point, the ATF mix in the transmission was 64 percent old MaxLife and 36 percent Red Line.

Two weeks later, after driving a couple or few hundred miles, our mechanic repeated the procedure, again draining and replenishing 3.5 quarts (about 1.3 quarts of the mixed ATF that was drained was the new Red Line), and after stage 2, the fluid mixture was 59 percent new Red Line and 41 percent old MaxLife. We drove with that for two weeks, getting it well mixed up.

Stage 3 (this coming Monday) will repeat the 3.5 quart drain (of which about 2.1 quarts will be the new Red Line), this time replenishing with one bottle of LubeGard red (~10 fluid ounces) and topping off with a little less than three quarts of Red Line. This is the last round; going forward, the mixture will be about 67.4+ percent new Red Line, 26.1 percent old MaxLife, and 6.4+ percent LubeGard.

Even after "throwing out" about 3.4 quarts of the new Red Line ATF in stages 2 and 3, we will have put into the fill port a total of just under ten quarts of Red Line (plus the bottle of LubeGard) in the three stages. The full flush that we performed at 30,000 miles consumed 16 quarts (four gallons) of MaxLife, six quarts (a gallon and a half) of which went straight to the used oil recycler.


I'm curious, what makes you more confident in Redline than MaxLife?

 

[yonyon]

Towncivilian, I've seen such a power flush type machine in use so I can confirm that such things have been made and used. That was over a decade ago, though.

 

[MarkStock]

Some really good information in this thread.

Changing Mercedes ATF is a pain. Why? Because they went with lifetime fluid and put in a closed design. Then they realized their mistake and went to 40k changes which requires a lot of labor. I'm looking forward to that one at the stealer.

The warning on pressure back flush is important. Send the existing fluid the wrong way, pushing the crud out of the filter and into the transmission. Then claim no filter change required as you've cleaned it. This is one of those genius ideas that we see in many walks of life these days. Possibly responsible for many of the transmission failures after shop flushes on neglected transmissions.

Confusing the whole issue is the fact that so many mechanics don't even use the correct terminology for the procedure they follow. So they might say they flush it and that it's not backwards, but it might be or their junior operating the machine gets it wrong and it is. Some people call it a flush to make it sound good when it's just a drain and fill (without touching the pan).

The best procedure is the drop and clean pan, replace filter, then drain and replace fluid through the cooler lines for a complete exchange. There is a link to it in this post.

I don't agree with the change 1/3rd, then change another 1/3rd, then another 1/3rd to get it up to 60% new. It's extra time, extra labor, wasted fluid and nowhere near 100% new. It's something you can do for power steering fluid as you can get to nearly 100% new for 2 bottles instead of 1 bottle, but a transmission really needs 100% fresh fluid.

 

[RiceCake]

Transmission fluid should never be changed when the car is fresh off the factory floor or after you've already changed it.

Beyond that, feel free, always good to do.

 

[GC4lunch]

Originally Posted By: buster

I'm curious, what makes you more confident in Redline than MaxLife?


MaxLife then (when we flushed the transmission at 30,000 miles) was recommended for applications (such as ours) that take M-V (Type M5) transmission fluid. Ashland/Valvoline changed the formulation of MaxLife in 2008, and took the affirmative action of removing the recommendation of MaxLife for M-V (Type M5) applications from its labels, where formerly it appeared.

The current, inferior, formulation of MaxLife has inappropriate low temperature viscosity and an insufficient anti-judder specification for applications such as ours that call for M-V (Type M5) automatic transmission fluid. See this Mazda Technical Service Bulletin.

Red Line D4 is unconditionally recommended for applications that specify M-V (Type M5) ATF. Currently at a 59 percent concentration of Red Line D4 in our transmission, the transmission is getting to higher gears faster, and staying in high gears longer before downshifting, than it has in the entire history of this car. And it does so with smooth shifts, and, no, the engine is not lugging: it just seems that the engine's power is getting more efficiently transferred to the drivetrain.

 

[S_Walmer]

Here is some advice from a respected volvo technician on a forum I frequent in reference to the Geartronic Aisin trans used in the newer volvos. Toyota is the parent company of Aisin, this brand of transmissions are used in other manufactures as well.

Hope this helps.

 

[SteveSRT8]

First of all, I have personally visited almost every single service facility across 3 counties in Florida searching for the mythical "powered flush" trans machine.

It simply does not exist! All machines at over 100 different facilities were simply two containers in a fancy cabinet. Totally passive, no pumps or power at all. We even owned a B&G machine for years I bought at auction, it was so simple I replaced it with a 5 gallon bucket and a length of hose!

Second, you cannot 'back flush' an automatic trans. This is due to check valves and balls throughout the trans/valve body that are SPECIFICALLY designed to insure that fluid only goes one way. The right way!

Third, no flush is a replacement for a pan drop and filter change, especially in the first part of the trans' life, as most wear particles are released during this time.

The whole biz about a "flush" ruining a trans is just not true. I have rescued many an older car, imports and domestics, by replacing the fluid. A bottle of Lubegard red and you're as good as it gets.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Quest
Common housewifey's tales typically blame trannie that reaches end of life on most recent mechanical servicing event (e.g. trannie flush).Q.

x2 - if the transmission fails after a fluid change, it was destined to fail anyway.


True, and then the last person who touched it gets blamed. That's why most shops prefer to stay clear of those jobs in older vehicles.

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^Smart business owners know when to say no thank you!

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: GC4lunch
Originally Posted By: buster

I'm curious, what makes you more confident in Redline than MaxLife?


MaxLife then (when we flushed the transmission at 30,000 miles) was recommended for applications (such as ours) that take M-V (Type M5) transmission fluid. Ashland/Valvoline changed the formulation of MaxLife in 2008, and took the affirmative action of removing the recommendation of MaxLife for M-V (Type M5) applications from its labels, where formerly it appeared.

The current, inferior, formulation of MaxLife has inappropriate low temperature viscosity and an insufficient anti-judder specification for applications such as ours that call for M-V (Type M5) automatic transmission fluid. See this Mazda Technical Service Bulletin.

Red Line D4 is unconditionally recommended for applications that specify M-V (Type M5) ATF. Currently at a 59 percent concentration of Red Line D4 in our transmission, the transmission is getting to higher gears faster, and staying in high gears longer before downshifting, than it has in the entire history of this car. And it does so with smooth shifts, and, no, the engine is not lugging: it just seems that the engine's power is getting more efficiently transferred to the drivetrain.


I disagree, the formulation has been improved. Also, Redline is just recommending their fluid, it has no approval.
Also, I'm noticing an improvement with the current MaxLife over the OEM M-V fluid. Faster shifting into the right gear and no lugging at all.