What's the reason Valvoline uses sodium?
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I read somewhere that sodium is MORE expensive to use than calcium. Not enough time to find the article. If someone else did that would be great.
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Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Keep in mind the oil contains a sodium containing compound. It's not table salt. The spectroscopy done by UOA just looks for that one atom.
Good job not understanding anything about the physical world.
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Keep in mind the oil contains a sodium containing compound. It's not table salt. The spectroscopy done by UOA just looks for that one atom.
Good job not understanding anything about the physical world.
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Does Valvoline use sodium in place of moly?
From my chemistry classes a few decades back, I recall studying Sodium having high lubrication properties. So I am inclined to believe that it functions as a friction modifier in the oil.
Sodium is a completely different substance from Sodium Chloride. The latter that is commonly known as table salt and is *not* the additive in oils. Sodium is also alkaline, and hence I am inclined to think that it helps neutralize acids and also act as a detergent/cleanser. It is less reactive than potassium.
I also *speculate* Sodium to be more expensive than Calcium.
Sodium is a completely different substance from Sodium Chloride. The latter that is commonly known as table salt and is *not* the additive in oils. Sodium is also alkaline, and hence I am inclined to think that it helps neutralize acids and also act as a detergent/cleanser. It is less reactive than potassium.
I also *speculate* Sodium to be more expensive than Calcium.
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Keep in mind the oil contains a sodium containing compound. It's not table salt. The spectroscopy done by UOA just looks for that one atom.
Good job not understanding anything about the physical world.
did you mean "element" rather than "atom"...atoms are pretty small as far as the physical world is concerend.
And did you mean that the Analysis only "sees" which particular "elements" are in the sample, rather than the "compound", which isn't table salt ?
What's that about the physical world ?
Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Keep in mind the oil contains a sodium containing compound. It's not table salt. The spectroscopy done by UOA just looks for that one atom.
Good job not understanding anything about the physical world.
did you mean "element" rather than "atom"...atoms are pretty small as far as the physical world is concerend.
And did you mean that the Analysis only "sees" which particular "elements" are in the sample, rather than the "compound", which isn't table salt ?
What's that about the physical world ?
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Keep in mind the oil contains a sodium containing compound. It's not table salt. The spectroscopy done by UOA just looks for that one atom.
Good job not understanding anything about the physical world.
LMAO!! Kingcake.... We know its not table salt. Thank you for explaining it to us.
Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Keep in mind the oil contains a sodium containing compound. It's not table salt. The spectroscopy done by UOA just looks for that one atom.
Good job not understanding anything about the physical world.
LMAO!! Kingcake.... We know its not table salt. Thank you for explaining it to us.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Keep in mind the oil contains a sodium containing compound. It's not table salt. The spectroscopy done by UOA just looks for that one atom.
Good job not understanding anything about the physical world.
did you mean "element" rather than "atom"...atoms are pretty small as far as the physical world is concerend.
And did you mean that the Analysis only "sees" which particular "elements" are in the sample, rather than the "compound", which isn't table salt ?
What's that about the physical world ?
He doesn't know an atom, from a molecule, or an ionic bond from a covalent bond, but he's here to tell us that my oil is not salty.
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Keep in mind the oil contains a sodium containing compound. It's not table salt. The spectroscopy done by UOA just looks for that one atom.
Good job not understanding anything about the physical world.
did you mean "element" rather than "atom"...atoms are pretty small as far as the physical world is concerend.
And did you mean that the Analysis only "sees" which particular "elements" are in the sample, rather than the "compound", which isn't table salt ?
What's that about the physical world ?
He doesn't know an atom, from a molecule, or an ionic bond from a covalent bond, but he's here to tell us that my oil is not salty.
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
Sodium is a completely different substance from Sodium Chloride. The latter that is commonly known as table salt and is *not* the additive in oils.
We got that.
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
Sodium is also alkaline...
No it isn't. Sodium is a solid metal. Metals can't be alkaline (or acidic or neutral - they have no pH). Sodium does easily form some alkaline solutions, such as sodium hydroxide and sodium bicarbonate, but this is not "sodium" either.
There seems to be a lot of psuedo-chemistry going on in here (talk of salt grains 'polishing' away deposits and so forth). Joe and Shannow have offered some good insights and sources that give interesting information on how sodium might show up in an oil (and I have also offered my own experience).
In the end though, unless one of you is a Valvoline formulator, it's all conjecture and assumption.
Sodium is a completely different substance from Sodium Chloride. The latter that is commonly known as table salt and is *not* the additive in oils.
We got that.
Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
Sodium is also alkaline...
No it isn't. Sodium is a solid metal. Metals can't be alkaline (or acidic or neutral - they have no pH). Sodium does easily form some alkaline solutions, such as sodium hydroxide and sodium bicarbonate, but this is not "sodium" either.
There seems to be a lot of psuedo-chemistry going on in here (talk of salt grains 'polishing' away deposits and so forth). Joe and Shannow have offered some good insights and sources that give interesting information on how sodium might show up in an oil (and I have also offered my own experience).
In the end though, unless one of you is a Valvoline formulator, it's all conjecture and assumption.
After looking through several patents, I'm still none the wiser as to what this sodium additive in Valvoline's oil is or what its primary function is.
Whatever it is, I don't think I've ever come across this stuff in Europe or the rest of the world outside of the US. To me that suggests it is a friction modifier. It also makes me think there may be aspects of its performance that rule it out of European (ACEA or OEM) applications. I'm obviously thinking seals aggressiveness but there maybe aspects of diesel performance that are negatively impacted by sodium.
Whatever it is, I don't think I've ever come across this stuff in Europe or the rest of the world outside of the US. To me that suggests it is a friction modifier. It also makes me think there may be aspects of its performance that rule it out of European (ACEA or OEM) applications. I'm obviously thinking seals aggressiveness but there maybe aspects of diesel performance that are negatively impacted by sodium.
Just seeing the word "sodium" makes me freak out because I work in semiconductors.
I can still vividly remember a process engineer at my first company giving a talk about fab operations and looking like he was having a panic attack when he started talking about sodium..."Sodium ions propagate through the silicon lattice AT NEARLY THE SPEED OF LIGHT!!!"
If sodium gets in your wafers, you don't have a semiconductor anymore...just a conductor.
The guy brought down the house when he talked about a major crisis that occurred when the company was new...yields for all products suddenly dropped to zero and analysis indicated the wafers were full of sodium.
Turned out that one of the fab workers was using a diffusion furnace to heat his hot dogs at lunch time...
I can still vividly remember a process engineer at my first company giving a talk about fab operations and looking like he was having a panic attack when he started talking about sodium..."Sodium ions propagate through the silicon lattice AT NEARLY THE SPEED OF LIGHT!!!"
If sodium gets in your wafers, you don't have a semiconductor anymore...just a conductor.
The guy brought down the house when he talked about a major crisis that occurred when the company was new...yields for all products suddenly dropped to zero and analysis indicated the wafers were full of sodium.
Turned out that one of the fab workers was using a diffusion furnace to heat his hot dogs at lunch time...
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Just seeing the word "sodium" makes me freak out because I work in semiconductors.
I can still vividly remember a process engineer at my first company giving a talk about fab operations and looking like he was having a panic attack when he started talking about sodium..."Sodium ions propagate through the silicon lattice AT NEARLY THE SPEED OF LIGHT!!!"
If sodium gets in your wafers, you don't have a semiconductor anymore...just a conductor.
The guy brought down the house when he talked about a major crisis that occurred when the company was new...yields for all products suddenly dropped to zero and analysis indicated the wafers were full of sodium.
Turned out that one of the fab workers was using a diffusion furnace to heat his hot dogs at lunch time...
Great story!!
Just seeing the word "sodium" makes me freak out because I work in semiconductors.
I can still vividly remember a process engineer at my first company giving a talk about fab operations and looking like he was having a panic attack when he started talking about sodium..."Sodium ions propagate through the silicon lattice AT NEARLY THE SPEED OF LIGHT!!!"
If sodium gets in your wafers, you don't have a semiconductor anymore...just a conductor.
The guy brought down the house when he talked about a major crisis that occurred when the company was new...yields for all products suddenly dropped to zero and analysis indicated the wafers were full of sodium.
Turned out that one of the fab workers was using a diffusion furnace to heat his hot dogs at lunch time...
Great story!!
Originally Posted By: jdavis
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
+1
In August '12 I posted the cleanest UOA you'll ever see from any BMW, even for the mere 4K I ran it over two summer months.
The oil was green bottle Maxlife and the UOA showed plenty of sodium along with good residual TBN and very low wear metals.
I'm not informed enough to debate the relative merits of a sodium based add pack, but I can't see any downside to it.
The many loyal Valvoline users are neither stupid nor crazy.
Why is Valvoline in none of the vehicles in your signature? lol
I've used Valvoline in three of the five vehicles in my signature.
The German, the Japanese and the Mexican Ford.
So many oils, so little time
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
+1
In August '12 I posted the cleanest UOA you'll ever see from any BMW, even for the mere 4K I ran it over two summer months.
The oil was green bottle Maxlife and the UOA showed plenty of sodium along with good residual TBN and very low wear metals.
I'm not informed enough to debate the relative merits of a sodium based add pack, but I can't see any downside to it.
The many loyal Valvoline users are neither stupid nor crazy.
Why is Valvoline in none of the vehicles in your signature? lol
I've used Valvoline in three of the five vehicles in my signature.
The German, the Japanese and the Mexican Ford.
So many oils, so little time
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
So many oils, so little time
Ain't that the truth.
I'm all over Castrol right now, but I want to spend a little more time in the Valvoline camp.
So many oils, so little time
Ain't that the truth.
I'm all over Castrol right now, but I want to spend a little more time in the Valvoline camp.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Does Valvoline use sodium in place of moly?
No, in place of calcium/magnesium.
Does Valvoline use sodium in place of moly?
No, in place of calcium/magnesium.
BTW isn't there some issue about Ca and DI and LSPI ?
Maybe an oil that replaces some Ca with Na offers a few advantages to the DI people. Not that it's the lowest Ca levels out there, just lower than some.
Maybe an oil that replaces some Ca with Na offers a few advantages to the DI people. Not that it's the lowest Ca levels out there, just lower than some.
Originally Posted By: SR5
BTW isn't there some issue about Ca and DI and LSPI ?
Maybe an oil that replaces some Ca with Na offers a few advantages to the DI people. Not that it's the lowest Ca levels out there, just lower than some.
It could be but I doubt it. These sodium containing GF-5 oils have been around a long time now, long before LSPI got to be the high profile thing it's going to be in GF-6.
BTW isn't there some issue about Ca and DI and LSPI ?
Maybe an oil that replaces some Ca with Na offers a few advantages to the DI people. Not that it's the lowest Ca levels out there, just lower than some.
It could be but I doubt it. These sodium containing GF-5 oils have been around a long time now, long before LSPI got to be the high profile thing it's going to be in GF-6.
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Yeah and the best way to avoid LSPI is to stop mincing about, put your foot down, keep the revs up, and avoid the Low Speed part of the LSPI.
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