Whats better M1 filter or the K&N filter¿

kctom · May 16, 2003

Do you have beta ratings for Baldwin? From what I have seen they do not compare to Frams. Fram filters have been tested by Purolator and have a beta of 2.5 at 10 microns. What more do I need. The tests performed right here show that Frams flow oil well. Better than any others tested. Who cares about the number of pleats and surface area.

Like I said, I have used Frams for over 33 years. My engines like them. I have put over 1/4 of a million miles on Fram during the 1990's when their quality supposedly went down. No oil filter related problems.

I should point out that Fram did not threaten the minimopar site.

I appologize for the muliple posts. I am work and I do get busy at times. They don't mind me on the internet, but not when I am neede elsewhere.

Tom F

Greaser · May 16, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by kctom:
I have cut a Fram filter apart and could not find anything to dislike. I have searched google. I find that people dislike Fram because they have heard bad things, from other people who have heard bad things...........

Do you have any facts? They look good when oil is ran through them.

Kctom...So far every site will be just like this one..WE JUST SCRATCHING THE SURFACE on oil filters here...and every other site...people make homemade apparatus to test filters,take them apart etc.So there are NO rweal conclusive tests being performed EXCEPT for SAE testing...and I'm sure Fram meets that one..or they couldn't be on the shelf.BUT what we are saying is that 99.8% of the consumers know squat about oil filters and go with the ones that are being marketed best...Fram and clones...what we are doing is TRYING to find ones that ARE better constructed,have genuine by-pass/anti-drain back valves that work more than 2000miles and use QUALITY inside...even though they(other manufacturers) can use cardboard and pass tests...but DON'T..WHY?To boot the price is close,if not better,than Fram...WHY can a company use metal instead of cardboard...spring steel instead of plastic...almost 50% more pleated media for filtration...and still be priced the same as a manufacturer who uses cardboard and plastic...thats all we want to know...why would you want cardboard if metal is the same price...why would you stay with plastic if metal and spring steel are available...wouldn't you want four threads on a base to screw your filter on with...instead of 2 1/2 threads in a filmsy baseplate...use Fram if you want...it's your choice dude.

kctom · May 16, 2003

I use Fram because my cars like them. They run good and last a long time. And every test that pushes oil through a filter shows Fram to be a very good filter.

Call me crazy.

Tom F

seldont · May 16, 2003

Okay you asked for it. You're Crazy!. Just kidding but you did ask for it. I have a 65 Mustang and a 82 LTD and I can tell you neither one of those cars like Fram. I never tried one on my 97 Ford pickup or wife's Explorer. The two old cars have terrible top end noise using Fram. I get a little using a Supertech also but not the dry start clacking and clanging a Fram gives me. Besides Fram knows the cardboard is inferior or they would use it in the expesive filters also. If they know it is inferior I sure will not use one with it. Just my 2 cents. Allied Signal or Honeywell does make a good spark plug with the Autolite.

[ May 17, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: seldont ]

Mystic · May 16, 2003

I am sure that FRAM used to make the Saturn oil filters (although someone at this web site said that at least some Saturn oil filters are now being made by Champion Labs). I know that the Saturn oil filters were made by FRAM because it said Allied Signal on the filters.

I stopped using the Saturn oil filters because the engine made noise on start-up. When I used other brands, like a Purolator Premium Plus, there was no noise.

I used FRAM for so many years that when I decided to switch to other brands, it was actually hard not to reach for that orange can. I did not want to switch-if FRAM would have continued to make good quality oil filters I would never have switched.

I no longer have brand loyalty. You have to be loyal to your family and yourself, not to any company.

I am going to Schaeffer's Oil. I want for my car to run good and last as long as possible. Right now I am going to use K&N oil filters. If people at this web site discover next week that FRAM has improved greatly in quality and now makes the best oil filter there is, I will use FRAM again. Be loyal to yourself.

kctom · May 17, 2003

I would ditch Fram in a heart beat if I noticed any sign of a problem. I don't know what to make of this start-up noise problem. It has been reported with Fram and other brands.It's pretty easy to spot so I don't think it a major problem. I have never noticed it.

Fram claims that the cardboard end-caps will not work with their new filtration medium. So they switched to metal. I tend to believe them. Fram has become NO.1 with cardboard, why would they switch to metal if it wasn't necessary in this application?

As far as K&N is concerned, it neither filters as well, nor flows oil as well as a Fram. If that is better quality, then you definitely have a different definition than I do.

Tom

Greaser · May 17, 2003

We all are on this board because we care about our vehicles...if you want to go with Fram...go for it...at least you are changing your oil and filter at regular intervals..not like some yo-yo's out there...it's great to have comments from different angles...or there would be no need for discussion here...I went from Purolater Premiums to Mobil to Bosch back full circle to Purolaters...it was a fun trip

..If you want to pay for a 2x6 and get a 2x4 hey go for it...just yanking your chain Kctom

Patman · May 17, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by kctom:

As far as K&N is concerned, it neither filters as well, nor flows oil as well as a Fram.

Considering the K&N is designed for racing applications and uses a media made with a blend of polyester and fibreglass in it, compared to Fram which uses a cellulose media, I find it hard to believe Fram can outflow it. The only reason I believe Bob's test showed it flowing so well is because I believe it to be in partial or total bypass mode, or it's leaking oil somehow. Just look at how poorly the Fram Toughguard filter did, and supposedly it's media is the same or very similar to the regular Fram.

Mystic · May 17, 2003

If I remember correctly, the K&N flowed very well in the BOBISTHEOILGUY oil filter flow tests. And I know of a web site that sells bypass oil filters, where the K&N was described as one of the best oil filters made (in terms of filtering efficieny). And the people selling that bypass filter technology stated that they had no connections to K&N. They described the Wix as being second to the K&N. I can't remember which bypass oil filter company it was, but type in bypass oil filters and you should be able to find it. Unless they have changed their web site, it was stated right there on their web site.

The K&N is cheaper, at least at the auto parts store I go to, than the FRAM X2 ExtendedGuard. The K&N was $9.99 and the FRAM oil filter was something like 12 or 13.

Now, the K&N is an expensive oil filter. But compared to many quality oil filters, you are talking a difference of 4 or 5 dollars. If the K&N is considerably better, would you be willing to spend 4 or 5 dollars more? What is your engine worth?

On the other hand, if Bob were to discover that a FRAM oil filter costing 3-4-5 dollars is as good as anything else, then I will use the FRAM.

Use the best at the lowest price possible, regardless if the brand is FRAM, Purolator, Wix, or whatever. Is this good business?

JohnBrowning · May 17, 2003

Kctom when I want beta numbers I just email the filter companys for their relavant test information and they always send it to me! Kctom so many engines have problems with Fram filter that the first question one engine remanufacture actual ask's if a tech. reports lifter noise or valve train clatter on start up is " Did you install a Fram oil filter by chance?" nine times out of ten changeing the filter to AC/Delco or some other brand solves these problems. I doubt that this is just chance! You still have not checked out a Baldwin though. Why would anyone want a Pinto when they could have a Rolls Royce for the same price? Surely as an Engineer supior build quality, material and design must mean something. The old I used it for 33 years means little. Heck my Grandfather had a Model T and used 600 wt gear lube in it for a long time yet we do not still use it! I smoked for 10 years and did not develop cancer or emphasemy does that mean I should not have quit? Every test of cognitive functioning , fine motor skills, memory and alzhymers prevention shows that smokeing is good for you yet we know over all it is bad! I never had a problem with a Fram filter failing me as far as I know but why would I want to settle for less? Settleing for anything less then either the best performance or the best marginal return on investment. Fram is neither the best in terms of performance and it is also not the best for marginal return. Kctom what do you design?

kctom · May 17, 2003

I saw a post by some guy that summed up my feelings and past experience perfectly. He said something like this:

"I have a pick-up truck with 220,000 miles on it. The body is rusted, the interior is in bad shape. I have rebuilt the transmission twice and the front end once. The air-conditioning quit a few years ago and the windshield is cracked. But the engine runs perfectly. And you say I need a better oil filter?"

kctom · May 18, 2003

JohnBrowning

I find it interesting that you use and recommend Baldwin unequivically without even knowing the filter efficacy. Fram has a beta of 2.5 at 10 microns according to Purolator, not Fram. That means that it removes 60% of the 10 micron particles in one pass. Does Baldwin do better? And if they do, would my car last longer?

Tom

Mystic · May 18, 2003

kctom, it is apparent that you are sold on the FRAM oil filter. That is fine with me-use the FRAM. I was a FRAM guy also.

But I do think that you should at least be willing to consider other filter brands. Let us say for the sake of argument, that we discover that Purolator oil filters are better than the FRAM. And Purolator costs about the same. Would you continue to use a FRAM if for the same cost you could have a better oil filter?

I have nothing against FRAM. I used FRAM filters for a long time. I wish that the FRAM was better in quality. I would be using FRAM right now, but I had bad experiences with two FRAM oil filters, and after I read the oil filter study on the internet and came across some other information, I moved on to other brands.

It is obvious that you want to continue using the FRAM. This is a free country-use whatever you want on your own vehicles. But perhaps be open to the possibility that you may be able to do better for your vehicles.

kctom · May 18, 2003

Mystic,

Frams are cheap. They remove all of the harmful contaminants in my oil. I don't find any problems with the materials used in it. Unless I learn something negative about them, why change. But I am not trying to force my choices down anyones throat. Earlier I said:

quote:

The most important element in choosing car care products is you. There is no point is skinning your knuckles and getting you hands dirty, if you don't get the feeling of satisfaction from a job well done. Use parts that you can trust.

What really bothers me is to see a discussion group dedicated to removing the hype in determining the best products for our cars. Yet, all that I get is hype, no facts. That bothers me. Is the art of critical thinking dead? Do people understand that an opinion is worthless if not backed with facts and logic?

Tom

Intelman34 · May 18, 2003

My buddy gave a Fram a try on his 1996 Mustang GT. He began to have oil pressure problems and his oil light would come on after about 1000 miles. The only thing that changed was the filter. He always uses M1 10w30.

Figuring it was the Fram, we changed the filter to a Supertech and put M1 back in. 2500 miles later... the problem still has never been seen again.

My fathers friend has had a motor ruined becuase the Fram on it completely broke apart inside..

Every time I have used a Fram, I have noticed that my oil pressure ends up being lower than ever before.

I have had bad experiences with Fram. I am not basing my opinion of someones pointless tests. I have given Fram its fair amount of chances... and it has never impressed me. (The Advertising/Marketing division of Fram does impress me though.)

I had a negative opinion if Fram before I even found this board. Things said here, just backed me up.

This is why I will NEVER use Fram and I will NEVER tell anyone to use Fram.

[ May 19, 2003, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Intelman34 ]

kctom · May 18, 2003

Inteleman34

I agree with you. If I had experienced what you claim, I too would be reluctant to recomend or use a Fram.

Unfortunately, without additional information, the incidences that you report do not lead to the conclusion that Fram filters are of dubious quality. Fram has an 800 number that you can call. Did anyone contact them about these problems? If so, what did they say?

Tom F.

Intelman34 · May 19, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by kctom:
Intelman34

Unfortunately, without additional information, the incidences that you report do not lead to the conclusion that Fram filters are of dubious quality. Fram has an 800 number that you can call. Did anyone contact them about these problems? If so, what did they say?

Tom F.

I think my fathers friend got some sort of compensation from Fram becuase it was so obvious the filter failed.

They blamed the oil pressure problems on the car itself. It doesnt seem to matter to them that the problem only existed with their filter on the car.

kctom · May 19, 2003

If the filter suffered a collapsed center tube, then it probably was not Fram's fault. You can check this out here: web page
This is a manufacturer's group that represents all of the various filter manufacturers.

Tom

Mystic · May 19, 2003

I can assure you kctom, I am not trying to give you some kind of hype, only the facts as I see them. I don't even want to argue with you about FRAM oil filters.

It is not hype that I personally had trouble with two FRAM oil filters on two cars that I owned. This is the truth.

It is also not hype that I have more engine noise at start-up using a FRAM than other brands. This is the truth also.

I want to be able to like FRAM. I used FRAM for many years. I started to turn away from FRAM long before I found this web site, and even before the oil filter studies on the internet, after I personally had some problems.

The BOBISTHEOILGUY oil filter studies are not complete. Flow properties have been studied right now. When these oil filter studies are complete, who knows what the results will be.

If we find out, for example, that a brand of oil filters cheaper than K&N, like maybe purolator, are as good as K&N, I will use Purolator. I lost my brand loyalty a long time ago. Companies had no loyalty to me.

I can remember guys arguing endlessly over whether Chevy or Ford trucks are the best. The competition makes for better products and I say, drive what truck you want to.

Same thing with oil filters. I don't care what the next guy is using. But I do care about my own car and my own engine.

I do not personally have anything against FRAM oil filters and the company that makes FRAM. I used FRAM products for a long time. I will use, with the help of this web site, the best oil filter for the lowest cost that I can.

There are some really excellent people at this web site who seem to really know their stuff. Naming just two examples, I think that everybody agrees that BOBISTHEOILGUY and Patman really know their stuff. Several more examples could be given.

Intelman34 · May 19, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by kctom:
If the filter suffered a collapsed center tube, then it probably was not Fram's fault. You can check this out here: web page
This is a manufacturer's group that represents all of the various filter manufacturers.

Tom

No... the filter literally fell apart in the inside.

Whats better M1 filter or the K&N filter¿

Similar threads