What passes through a filter, worn cam particles?

[Deltona]

I've spent a fair amount of time looking around here and whilst it's been an interesting read I can't really find what i'm looking for, it must have been done before so if you want to point me in the general direction please do!

I work with an engine which suffers from mysterious cam wear, it's not a new engine, nothing out of the ordinary and has been doing it for years. My basic question is; when the lobes wear down can the particles from them get through the filter element?

 

[Triton_330]

Depends on the size of the particles and depends on the micron rating of the filter.

What vehicle and what engine are you inquiring about? I can try to guide you to the best filters for this purpose only after I get that necessary info.

 

[Deltona]

Its a Fiat/Lancia 2ltr 16v turbo engine, used in the Delta integrale from about 1990 - 1994, also Fiat Coupe 16vt '95 on.
I've found a much taller filter by MANN, but what I really need to know is as per my initial question. It's just part of the whole story of what is happening here, i'm wondering if the particles do get through and then grind away the other lobes. Also, if they do are they responsible for wiping out replacement cams? Personally I do full rebuilds where the engine is fully dissected and cleaned thoroughly, but I know others aren't as diligent and just think it's enough to change the oil, filter and put a new cam in which then fails again.

My next move will be to create a magnetic sump plug.

 

[FowVay]

A magnetic sump plug might not be a bad idea. Camshafts and crankshafts are made from ferrous metals so their wear particles will be attracted to a magnet. Parts like pistons, chromium steel rings, aluminum oil pump housings, etc will not be attracted to the magnet yet they will distribute wear particles into the oil.

Oil filters generally stop a high percentage of the 30µ particles. These particles are pretty good sized and would measure about .001". If you're grinding your camshaft lobes at a high rate of speed then there is something wrong with the design. Volkswagen has/had issues with their unit injector diesel engines where they would eat camshafts and subsequently the related followers in as short as 100,000 miles. These things were just poorly designed, had too great of a load on the camshaft ramp face, too narrow of a camshaft lobe to carry the load, and too high of a temperature on the valve creating hot sections where the minimally specified lubricant was simply overwhelmed and lost the barrier lubrication required to do the job.

If you're replacing camshafts frequently the by all means disassemble the engine and clean the lubrication flow path. Pan, pickup tube, pump, sensor ports, etc. Cleanliness is critical. The quality of the replacement camshafts is also a considertion to keep in mind.

 

[Olas]

In your situation my first instinct would be to pull and mic the cam in two positions on every lobe, then install with Redline xw40, a Mann oil filter and a external bypass (toilet roll, centrifuge, whatever) then UOA and re measure cam lobes after a 3000 miles.

There have been know problems with certain cam manufacturers buying blanks with poor mettalurgy, and finished cams have subsequently suffered accelerated wear - not sure if this is currently a problem but worth being cognoscent of.

 

[Ducked]

I had (probably have, but I don't know the current status) ferrous metal settling out of my oil which was probably derived from the cams, and was apparently getting though the (AC-Delco) oil filter.

Described here:-

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2976159/Deposit_on_Dipstick#Post2976159

Incidentally my impression, both from observing my own, and from reading, is that magnetic sump plugs are fairly ineffective.

The best available systems seem to be either the magnetic bandoliers around the filter cannister, or the separate magnetic cannister that fits between the spin-on filter and its mounting.

Not sure which of these is likely to be best, though I suppose you could fit both.

 

[UncleDave]

Lots of stuff gets through even the best filters.

Your finger can feel dynamically (rolling back and forth vs static) about 9Microns and the best full flow auto filters stop their absolute filtering at "about" 20 then begin catching some % below that. Iron powder being one of the things that accelerates wear and one of the things you can catch.

If you can feel it with finger pressure, it can cause wear on a cam lobe under lots of pressure.
Every study I have read equates more particles in the oil with higher wear.

All the areas you describe and typically the liners is where ferrous material comes from.

Coming from a high HP marine environment we eat camshafts and engines way sooner than autos.
A 525 HP marine big block are typically good for about 250 hours Hr before a top end job, and 5-600 all in.

Lots of cam in block engines with flat tappets experience accelerated wear with todays oils.
Lots of cam companies aren't in control of their metallurgy and sell soft parts.

Of course bad design is hard to compensate for with regimens and bolt ons.

Look at some high end aftermarket components may change the wear reality.

I use magnets in almost all my stuff and always in high HP devices.

The mag drain plugs are less effective than the filter mount type, but still useful.

I look at the mag plug as primarily protecting your oil pump from ferrous debris and the filtermags (bandoliers) as having a much better chance to pul the particle out of the stream before it makes another round through your parts. I use both and find debris on both even using the best filters available.

A bypass of some sort requires much more commitment and although effective, adds leak, wear, and additional maintenance points to your vehicle as well as packaging issue.

I'd start with a really good oil, filter, and magnets, and a filter cutter and see what you catch when you cut it open the first time.

Show us the beast!

 

[steve20]

FWIW I would be using a product like ZDDPlus, or a high ZDDP motor oil to begin with
Steve

 

[Popsy]

Originally Posted By: Deltona
Its a Fiat/Lancia 2ltr 16v turbo engine, used in the Delta integrale from about 1990 - 1994, also Fiat Coupe 16vt '95 on.
I've found a much taller filter by MANN.

These engines are known to eat cams (along with some other same era Fiat engines), but I always wondered why. I personally thought the use of 10W60 oil (Selenia racing) was at least partially responsible for that, with a reduced top end flow with this thick oil. If you don't track or at least push the engine (most are oil/water exchanger + oil cooler fitted), they run pretty cool in normal use. But maybe there's another reason, and I'm curious.

What is the reference of your oil filters? I recently switched from Purflux to Hengst filters in my Barchetta, a lointain cousin of your engine, since I've never been too happy with MANN, and many Puflux are not made in France anymore

 

[FCD]

For about 20 years now the ZDDP ( Zinc and phosphorous ) additives have been reduced in engine oils because they can harm catalytic converters, it's an antiwear additive that reduces wear of the cam lobes and tappets of non roller valvetrain engines ( tappets that have wheels that roll on top of the cam lobes instead of a flat sliding follower )
What is the recomended viscosity? what are you using now?

 

[i_hate_autofraud]

If the engine uses a spin-on oil filter, check out this PDF with Pics of how well
magnetic filtering is, the more magnets the better the result.

If you use Filter Mags on the filter and cut open later, you can see what’s there
And how big the particles are!


FILTERMAG vs HOMEBREW
https://app.box.com/s/uxvu8dmscf5wcgftutdm0ejqwgn86tw7

I'd also look at oil passages running up and into the overhead cams, etc, to see if the lube
is getting thru. If the cams are oil starved they should less shiny, rough, streaked, etc.

 

[Popsy]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
For about 20 years now the ZDDP ( Zinc and phosphorous ) additives have been reduced in engine oils because they can harm catalytic converters, it's an antiwear additive that reduces wear of the cam lobes and tappets of non roller valvetrain engines ( tappets that have wheels that roll on top of the cam lobes instead of a flat sliding follower )
What is the recomended viscosity? what are you using now?

It's probably Selenia racing, which is a 10W60. Or Selenia 20K, a 10W40, maybe with recommended use of Selenia Performer (5W30) under -20°.
Any current A3/B4 oil should Have enough ZDDP IMO. Does the "old" 2.0L turbo has variable intake too ?