What oil & oci for an engine prone to stuck rings.

[tgferg67]

Hi,
I have a 97 Saturn SC1 that I recently re-ringed due to oil consumption. These engines - 1.9l have a design issue which makes them prone to sticking oil control rings and then progressively worse and worse oil consumption. There are no oil drainback holes in the piston oil control ring grooves which leads to this problem.

I'm not really sure what the best plan of action to prevent this from happening again. Should I use a high quality dino oil and change every 3,000 miles or use a group 3 and go 5,000 miles. Or maybe German Castrol group IV?

 

[d00df00d]

Any oil that carries Honda HTO-06 approval will be synthetic and have top-notch high temperature deposit control. Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Ultra are two examples. You should be fine for at least 6k-7k miles (probably more) with any of those oils.

 

[Nickdfresh]

One of the long time posters at saturnfans.com, who once was a Saturn tech, claimed that using Mobil 1 10W-30 from day one prevented any major oil consumption in the several Saturns he and his family members owned...

 

[ProStreetCamaro]

I would probably run pennz ultra if it were me.

 

[Bluestream]

Why would they make a piston with no drain holes on the oil control land? Even a lawnmower engine has those...

 

[J. A. Rizzo]

Originally Posted By: tgferg67
These engines - 1.9l have a design issue which makes them prone to sticking oil control rings and then progressively worse and worse oil consumption.


Have you ever heard of the Italian Tune-up? Another variation of this is to put the transmission in a low gear like second or third and rev the engine up to near the redline, then coast back down to low RPMs, gun it up to near redline again, coast down again, several times (maybe 5). When you accelerate, you may see black soot being blown out the tailpipe. That's a good thing. Then put the transmission in whatever gear will let you hold a steady highway speed as close to redline as possible and drive it like that maybe 5-10 minutes. The temperature will probably climb up, but just drop it back in high gear if the light comes on and do it again once it comes back down. Of course this would all be done within the boundaries of all traffic laws and safety considerations.

The point is to 1) get the rings moving and scrape off as much carbon and gunk as you can from the ring land area by forcing them to move under high vacuum in the cylinder and then 2) burn off carbon from the ring land area by heating it up at high RPMs for a while. The process probably sounds barbaric and you might feel like you need to apologize to the car afterward, but it should really help blow out accumulated schtuff around the rings and help keep the consumption down. This process worked great on Cadillac Northstar V8's that had been driven by Grandma to the grocery store and the salon and then parked for a week.

You may also consider GM Top Engine Cleaner or one of the many different options for getting a ring land cleaning agent to soak into the rings a bit to help loosen things up before you go through the aforementioned flogging process. Things I've heard of using for this: GM Top Engine Cleaner, 50/50 mix of Chevron Techron and gasoline, Sea Foam, Gumout carburetor cleaner, or a blend of all of these. Of course, you will probably want to change the oil with a good cleaning oil like an HDEO 5W-40, or other known good cleaning oil right after doing the soaking and flogging routine, but then the rings should be in good shape after all this.

Take it for what it's worth. Somebody will probably tell you this is all just crazy talk, but I've seen it work. I suspect you'll also hear to pour things like MMO and Sea Foam in the crankcase. Since I've never done that, I can't speak to its safety or efficacy, but it may have technical merits.

Let us know what you wind up doing, and good luck.

 

[Gary Allan]

I would have looked into changing the pistons or drilling holes in the existing ones (if practical) when I did the ring job.

That moot point stated for no darn good reason (

) I'd like to say that a higher quality synthetic changed in a timely manner would be the best way to avoid the problem in the future. I've got plenty to sell you.

You run into some collisions, though. I think if you compare the costs of using a high powered synthetic changed early to just accepting the consumption as it occurs (with a cheaper product), that you'll lose in the exchange.

It might require a round or two with something like Redline every couple of years to disrupt any formations (while otherwise using cheaper product).

 

[tgferg67]

There was a poll amount owners with this engine and half consume oil. Since half don't I assume the problem can be controlled with oil so I didnt drill holes in the pistons while I had it apart.

 

[daman]

If it's prone for this type of thing i'd go M1HM,PP,PU @ 5-7K OCI.

let 'er clean!

 

[cp3]

I have a '94 sitting in the driveway with 400-450 k km (can't remember now) that went it's whole life on dino 5000km OCIs. When I parked it it leaked more than it burned and that was only .5 to 1 litre per OCI. Pretty good for an old Saturn! I remember a lot of folks on Saturnfans were dumping M1 at 3000 miles but my experience seems to indicate that it was overkill. I can't see that a good syn at a decent OCI wouldn't keep it going trouble free for a long time. Even the major dinos at 3000 miles should work. Maybe even a bit longer with the new oils.

 

[Gene K]

Shell Rotella T5 Synthetic Blend 10W30. Seriously HDEO is designed to prevent this kind of deposits.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
One of the long time posters at saturnfans.com, who once was a Saturn tech, claimed that using Mobil 1 10W-30 from day one prevented any major oil consumption in the several Saturns he and his family members owned...


My many many years of experience with M1 oils, and the many family and friends that use M1 oils has never had coked rings even with some very high OCIs on high mileage engines.

 

[Gary Allan]

Would I be correct in saying that you mean, "no ring deposits that resulted in consumption since none had any consumption of merit"??

..or was this some tear down thing that you've been holding out on??

Love ya, pal

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Would I be correct in saying that you mean, "no ring deposits that resulted in consumption since none had any consumption of merit"??

..or was this some tear down thing that you've been holding out on??

Love ya, pal

Actually I meant what I said. Yes, I have seen several engines that have been torn down with coked rings and the rings are closed shut allowing oil and combustion gases to pass by resulting in high oil consumption. These engines always used dino and the OCIs were abused. I have never had an engine show signs of unusual oil use or low cylinder compression. Synt oils help reduce ring coking especially with higher OCIs. I'm not slaming dino oil here, just pointing out reduced ring coking is one advantage with synt with longer OCIs.

 

[boombie10000]

I have owned 4 saturns ranging in mileage when purchased from 7 miles to 174000 miles. If the car had good maintenance records there was no oil consumption. If the records were poor or nonexistent, the car used oil. Sure the lack of drain-back holes in the piston could have led to consumption but like I said,good maintenance made all of the difference. I use a quality synthetic, and follow the oil life monitor, which for me usually means 1 year oci.

 

[bullwinkle]

I personally would try M1 TDT + multiple Italian tune-ups, made a HUGE difference in my old abused 300D motor when I bought it!

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: tig1

Actually I meant what I said. Yes, I have seen several engines that have been torn down with coked rings and the rings are closed shut allowing oil and combustion gases to pass by resulting in high oil consumption. These engines always used dino and the OCIs were abused. I have never had an engine show signs of unusual oil use or low cylinder compression. Synt oils help reduce ring coking especially with higher OCIs. I'm not slaming dino oil here, just pointing out reduced ring coking is one advantage with synt with longer OCIs.


I think that is because of the better NOACK rating Syn's have over dino because of their better quality basestocks. The fact that the oil avoids this evaporative burn-off helps to keep it from forming deposits on engine surfaces and in high temperature areas like the rinks/piston sides.

M1 is really good in this area like Amsoil & Redline!

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: Gene K
Shell Rotella T5 Synthetic Blend 10W30. Seriously HDEO is designed to prevent this kind of deposits.


Ding correct answer!

I'd use this or Delo before anything else.

Bill

 

[Pablo]

Absolute best is a synthetic HDEO at preventing stuck rings. Conventional oil? Not so much.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Would I be correct in saying that you mean, "no ring deposits that resulted in consumption since none had any consumption of merit"??

..or was this some tear down thing that you've been holding out on??

Love ya, pal

Actually I meant what I said. Yes, I have seen several engines that have been torn down with coked rings and the rings are closed shut allowing oil and combustion gases to pass by resulting in high oil consumption. These engines always used dino and the OCIs were abused. I have never had an engine show signs of unusual oil use or low cylinder compression. Synt oils help reduce ring coking especially with higher OCIs. I'm not slaming dino oil here, just pointing out reduced ring coking is one advantage with synt with longer OCIs.


...but ...and correct me if I'm wrong here, you've never torn down one of your 300k M1 (or 25k M1 for that matter - can't be. M1 engines never fail) and finding totally clean rings.

So for all you know, every one of your M1 engines could have rings that look like they were shellac'd in aviation grade Permatex and roasted over an open fire, right?

Just want to get the fact straight here, pal. I don't want to misunderstand your meaning