What makes an engine require synthetic oil?

[Japanese]

It it for longer oci? Specific type of timing chain? Any other things?

All of the above + low temp. viscosity/lubrication and high temp. protection.
The Can-Am Maverick you have is an all-terrain vehicle that encounters different/higher engine loads than a regular road vehicle.

The composer Modest Mussorgsky was famous for looking in the past for answers to present questions.

"Synthetic motor oil originated from efforts in Germany and the United States to create superior lubricants for high-performance aircraft engines during World War II due to petroleum shortages, with significant advancements made by German scientists in the 1930s and a notable development of di-ester synthetic oils by the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory in the early 1940s. Early synthetic lubricants were crucial for military operations, leading to their commercial introduction in the post-war era, with companies like Mobil and AMSOIL introducing their first synthetic products in the 1970s and 1990s, respectively."

https://www.drivenracingoil.com/blo...f,military aircraft and specialized equipment.

https://blog.amsoil.com/the-history...notable contribution to synthetic oil history.

Locked thread
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/who-really-made-the-first-synthetic-oil.3508/

 

[tig1]

Anything that has pistons going up and down. In my opinion.

 

[Patman]

Anything that has pistons going up and down. In my opinion.

What if those pistons go side to side?

 

[2.7ecoboostFordBronco]

OK. But how would you know for example if Blend brand X and "synthetic" brand Y both meet the same specs - that the synthetic is actually better? If both oils meet the same specs - can you infer one is better simply because it says "synthetic" on the label?

I am not referring to oils that meet stricter specs - like some of the stricter Euro specs which likely a blend would not meet?

I would argue that if you have a TGDI engine the API certification alone is not the best indicator of relative oil quality. The consumer wouldn’t have a way to know that without research. I would be grateful if anyone can point out to me any test sequence used in API certification that uses a TGDI engine other than in testing only for LSPI or fuel economy. For wear/viscosity/oxidation testing they’re using MPI non-turbo engines: Chrysler 3.6L pentastar, Ford 4.6L V8, Toyota 1.5L 2NR-FE, 0.7L CLR 1 cylinder carbureted test engine.

What makes the TGDI different? 2-3% fuel dilution is “normal”. Base oil viscosity index, VII, and additive choices can affect performance in that environment.

 

[nealberke]

They recommend that because it’s inexpensive for them to use for free oil changes that come with new cars and likely very profitable for them to sell to out of warranty costumers in their service department. Don’t mistake their syn blend “recommendation” to imply that it offers any benefit over “full synthetic”; there is evidence to the contrary.

That's been my hunch with my 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport. I'd lose nothing by going full synthetic. In some cases full synthetic is on sale and less $$ than blend. And, I've have more choices as far as products. Still, I've wondered if I'd burn more oil with full synthetic Vs semi-synthetic?

 

[SC Maintenance]

I would argue that if you have a TGDI engine the API certification alone is not the best indicator of relative oil quality. The consumer wouldn’t have a way to know that without research. I would be grateful if anyone can point out to me any test sequence used in API certification that uses a TGDI engine other than in testing only for LSPI or fuel economy. For wear/viscosity/oxidation testing they’re using MPI non-turbo engines: Chrysler 3.6L pentastar, Ford 4.6L V8, Toyota 1.5L 2NR-FE, 0.7L Test Fixture.

What makes the TGDI different? 2-3% fuel dilution is “normal”. Base oil viscosity index, VII, and additive choices can affect performance in that environment.

If dilution is the concern then a 10W-40 blend may shear down less than a high VII 5W-40 synthetic? Is possible I think. Certainly depends.

If both only meet the same basic spec - API SQ for example - then I don't how you can say a synthetic is "better" on its face.

Obviously you could do some VOA, or try to peer into the SDS, but I don't think just because the marketing group says is "synthetic" makes it better.

 

[2.7ecoboostFordBronco]

If dilution is the concern then a 10W-40 blend may shear down less than a high VII 5W-40 synthetic? Is possible I think. Certainly depends.

If both only meet the same basic spec - API SQ for example - then I don't how you can say a synthetic is "better" on its face.

Obviously you could do some VOA, or try to peer into the SDS, but I don't think just because the marketing group says is "synthetic" makes it better.

Synthetic base oils have a higher viscosity index. For instance, Group iii has VI > 120. All else held equal this higher VI requires the use of less VII to achieve the same viscosity spread as a conventional. There are certain properties (solvency and additive solubility) of a conventional base oil that might be useful in specific applications, but those can also be matched with a “full synthetic” formulation through additives, perhaps at a higher cost. So really the main of the benefit of the blend is cost. Otherwise you achieve better performance in oxidation, viscosity index, and stability with a group iii/iv/v base oil mix combined with a properly formulated DI additive package. Sure, it might be overkill for a 4.6L Ford V8, a 1.5L Toyota, or the 1 cylinder test engine used for API, but I argue it’s not overkill for a TGDI despite API having a low bar which a blend can clear just as well as the “full synthetic”.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Synthetic base oils have a higher viscosity index. For instance, Group iii has VI > 120. All else held equal this higher VI requires the use of less VII to achieve the same viscosity spread as a conventional. There are certain properties (solvency and additive solubility) of a conventional base oil that might be useful in specific applications, but those can also be matched with a “full synthetic” formulation through additives, perhaps at a higher cost. So really the main of the benefit of the blend is cost. Otherwise you achieve better performance in oxidation, viscosity index, and stability with a group iii/iv/v base oil mix combined with a properly formulated DI additive package. Sure, it might be overkill for a 4.6L Ford V8, a 1.5L Toyota, or the 1 cylinder test engine used for API, but I argue it’s not overkill for a TGDI despite API having a low bar which a blend can clear just as well as the “full synthetic”.

Except "synthetic", especially the cheap stuff, per the SDS is often 50 - < 60% group II+/ III, and hence you can infer its somewhere near 50% Group II, how much can you really infer just because it says synthetic on the bottle?

Vs a "blend" that might be 40% Group II+ /III

Might be a good guess its better, but its still just a guess.

 

[goblin]

Might I point my curious head and ask - for a 1.6 TGDi specced for 0w20 (the abovementioned Kia) that I actually want to experiment into keeping forever - would it make more sense to go grandpa 0w30 or 5w30 instead of the 0w20, or can I benefit from 0w20 Hybrid-specific oil ? Looks like most brands I'm willing to deal with (Valvoline, Amsoil, Motul) each have a dedicated Hybrid line, but none of them goes above 0w20 for those.

It grinds my gears that I see the engine barely ever going to temp, with all the ons and offs on short trips. I'm using the dashboard's temp gauge which can be dug out in a menu, not any OBD scans.

 

[2.7ecoboostFordBronco]

Except "synthetic", especially the cheap stuff, per the SDS is often 50 - < 60% group II+/ III, and hence you can infer its somewhere near 50% Group II, how much can you really infer just because it says synthetic on the bottle?

Vs a "blend" that might be 40% Group II+ /III

Might be a good guess its better, but its still just a guess.

I didn’t know an oil with 50% group I or II base stock could be marketed as synthetic. I was under the impression that anything aside from a ~10% carrier group I/II base for the additives would make it a blend. How do you infer that it’s 40-50% group II from that line in the SDS?

With that said, If all you need or desire is API certification performance levels then it doesn’t matter if it’s a blend or synthetic.

I think that those of us with TGDI engines are hoping API would test for wear and performance on that type of engine. In the absence of going to a euro approval or a trusted blender, one might speculate that a synthetic clears the API testing hurdle with more margin than a synthetic blend, but there could be exceptions.

 

[Japanese]

but none of them goes above 0w20 for those

It grinds my gears that I see the engine barely ever going to temp, with all the ons and offs on short trips.

Don't these two go together?
Lower viscosity oil will work better at lower temps.

 

[Japanese]

Our 2013 can am calls for a synthetic 5w40 year round.

Does your Can-Am Maverick have turbocharged engine?

 

[ziggy]

Turbos, driving in equator temps heat pressure , driving in 22 degrees weather, stop go traffic, cars oil burners like Toyota Corolla s 1998-2002, wrong piston rings installed their known too burn half quart to 1.5 quarts oil in 700-800 miles...

 

[goblin]

Don't these two go together?
Lower viscosity oil will work better at lower temps.

That would only be impacted by the 0, not by the 20 wouldn't it.

 

[Chris142]

Does your Can-Am Maverick have turbocharged engine?

No. It's the older one. 2013,Allegedly the 1st sold to the public according to the dealer

 

[Tom NJ]

I didn’t know an oil with 50% group I or II base stock could be marketed as synthetic. I was under the impression that anything aside from a ~10% carrier group I/II base for the additives would make it a blend. How do you infer that it’s 40-50% group II from that line in the SDS?

There are no laws or official rules governing the definition of "synthetic", but industry practice is to use the term when the base oil blend (exclusive of additives) consists fully of Group III, IV, and/or some Vs. Reputable oil companies adhere to this practice.

 

[Lawnman23]

I've mentioned it in a different thread. Here's the US manual for our new little Kia:

View attachment 301517

View attachment 301518

And here's the international manual for the very same engine:

View attachment 301519

Magically, mineral is OK if nothing else is available, as long as the severe usage OCI is used. And viscosities become sane again.

This looks about the same for our Carnival with the 3.5, NA lists 0W-20 only yet international shows 5W-30 is fine as well.

I went with M1 AFE 0W-30 for its first oil change and winter OCI. For summer, may switch to either ESP 0W-30 or VRP 5W-30.

 

[Glenda W.]

I didn’t know an oil with 50% group I or II base stock could be marketed as synthetic. I was under the impression that anything aside from a ~10% carrier group I/II base for the additives would make it a blend. How do you infer that it’s 40-50% group II from that line in the SDS?

With that said, If all you need or desire is API certification performance levels then it doesn’t matter if it’s a blend or synthetic.

I think that those of us with TGDI engines are hoping API would test for wear and performance on that type of engine. In the absence of going to a euro approval or a trusted blender, one might speculate that a synthetic clears the API testing hurdle with more margin than a synthetic blend, but there could be exceptions.

I think some may be surprised at what their $18 jug of “full synthetic” oil has for a blend.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

I can't figure it out...All I know the stuff that's on sale or clearance is usually full synthetic. Never seen a sale on a blend or plain dino oil. I guess that's the direction oil is going. The GDI with turbo's are commonplace nowadays, and they require full synthetic as per the manufacturer, or owners manual. Plain fuel injected engines are going bye bye like the carburetor did.,,,if not gone already. So, I guess their stocking dino and blend less since it can't really be sold in large quantity.

 

[mikeduf]

The cheapest synthetic oil is better than any fossil oil.