What is the chemistry behind Auto RX?

[wcbcruzer]

I've been hearing good stuff about this AutoRX. I am still skeptical, however. How can it not destroy seals, gaskets, etc. but remove sludge? How can it remove sludge AND stop leaks? There is no miracle drug that has no side effects. This is the same. So I'd like to know the chemical reaction that's occuring between Auto RX and sludge. In other words, how it is breaking it down?

Also, if it breaks down sludge to sub-micron levels, I believe that would do damage to cylinder walls since your oil filter won't pick it up.

I'm not bashing this product, but I just want to be more educated on it. The way I feel about it is that it's basically a concentrated shot of all the cleaners normally found in typical motor oil.

 

[Solo2driver]

My understanding is that it is a vegetable ester-base that is from Frank's background in servicing large printing machines, after being displeased (and in poor health) from using Solvents and other caustic materials to try to clean said very $$ machines. If he has found a way to have the cleaning benefits of a solvent without any corrosive or caustic nature, then that is exactly what we have been looking for.

I wouldn't think that any sub-micron level sludge particles would be harmful if they were carried in suspension and removed with the next round of fresh oil, just like anything else.

I think that most cleaners are solvents, distillates, and other very aggressive chemicals. In engine oil, it's usually Calcium, I think.

BTW, not supporting or promoting ARX, I have used it several times with good success though. Forgive my tiny mind and limited grasp of concepts

 

[JAG]

Sludge is composed of polar molecules and the esters in Auto-RX are polar (as are all esters to varying degrees). Like dissolves like...straight from chemistry class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvent
Quote:
The polarity, dipole moment, polarizability and hydrogen bonding of a solvent determines what type of compounds it is able to dissolve and with what other solvents or liquid compounds it is miscible. As a rule of thumb, polar solvents dissolve polar compounds best and non-polar solvents dissolve non-polar compounds best: "like dissolves like". Strongly polar compounds like sugars (e.g. sucrose) or ionic compounds, like inorganic salts (e.g. table salt) dissolve only in very polar solvents like water, while strongly non-polar compounds like oils or waxes dissolve only in very non-polar organic solvents like hexane. Similarly, water and hexane (or vinegar and vegetable oil) are not miscible with each other and will quickly separate into two layers even after being shaken well.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Well they give you the patent # on the site. You can look up the patent information for free online and read all about it. It USP Lanolin you know the stuff Mom's that breast feed rub on their nipples to prevent chaffing that is reacted to form very specific esters. The esters in it are no more harmful then regular motor oil is. Oil is not harmful to your cylinders and gaskets if it is not allowed to oxidise or sludge so why would an ester derived from an animal fat be harmful? Esters are in almost all plants and that is what gives most plants their nice smell and their medical properties. Take tea for example the ester's in it are what has most of the health benifits. Not everythign that can clean is bad for you and the environment. No sure their are swome esters that will eat the seals right out of an auotmotive engien but those are not used in automotive applications. You are late to the party and this is a product that has been tested by thousands of people and major oil additive companies and they all have the same result it works and is safe!!!!

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
There is no miracle drug that has no side effects.


So far, I can't think of one where you "pay" for the benefits of Auto-Rx on the primary or secondary level. The stuff is non-toxic and non-hazardous. You could wash your hands with it (and I imagine it would clean them if you could leave it on long enough and gave it enough heat). It's innocuous to the surfaces and substrata of the engine and even has friction modification properties to one of its components.

Now if you've got a defective seal, that's masked by sludge ..and it cleans out the false seal, then you may have a seal to replace. If you look on the front page, there's a guy trying to get his head gaskets fixed because Auto-Rx either cleaned out the crud that was maintaining the false seal ..or raised the compression too high (more toward normal) and "caused" his defective head gasket to fail.

..but that's so far into the tertiary level of cause and effect..it's kinda a non-issue, imo.

 

[wcbcruzer]

I understand the "like dissolved like" chemistry. But seals are made from petroleum too. So given that Auto RX is a slow acting solvent, it dissolves sludge but doesn't seem to affect seals ecause they're made out of "heavier" material. I guess it would begin inflame rubber seals so they expand and correct leaks.

Also, the parts guy at Napa once told me not to leave engine flush in for more than 5 mins. because it will start to eat away at the "varnish" on internal engine parts like camshaft, etc. Does that sound right? Why don't we normally leave engine flush in for that long?

 

[JAG]

MolaKule has many great posts on seals. Here's one: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=530741#Post530741

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

Originally Posted By: wcbcruzer
There is no miracle drug that has no side effects. This is the same.


it's not biochem, lots of additives are good w/ no side effects like moly

 

[sprintman]

RX is not a flush

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
But seals are made from petroleum too. So given that Auto RX is a slow acting solvent, it dissolves sludge but doesn't seem to affect seals ecause they're made out of "heavier" material. I guess it would begin inflame rubber seals so they expand and correct leaks.



There are gentle long-term ester solvents like ARX and then there are more aggresive hydrocarbon solvents like Seafoam, 5-minute flushes, etc.

Feel free to read more on this site as there is a wealth of technical, scientific, and practical info.


Here is another post which discusses seals and esters.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=530224#Post530224

Here is one on esters:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729310#Post729310

 

[wcbcruzer]

Thanks for the info guys. Too much reading for tonight, but it's good to know.

 

[ZZman]

You don't leave flush in long because it is made of Kerosene which is very harsh in how it works.

 

[kang]

Originally Posted By: wcbcruzer
...
I'm not bashing this product, but I just want to be more educated on it. The way I feel about it is that it's basically a concentrated shot of all the cleaners normally found in typical motor oil.


That’s the way I feel as well. This is my understanding. Not that I’m a chemist or anything, so I may not have this exactly right…

It seems to me that auto-rx is basically a concentrated dose of the detergent esters found in all oils, especially synthetics. Not that this is a bad thing. I’m sure there are some differences between the various esters, of course. For example, oil manufacturers need to consider longer OCI’s, while auto-rx only needs to run for 2,500 miles or so. The chemistry of auto-rx can be modified to reflect this. I think the esters in synthetic oil and auto-rx can compete with each other, which is why it’s recommended not to run synthetic oil.

Apparently, these esters soften sludge and hard carbon deposits, but they also cling to metal parts (due to their polar nature). This is the reason dino oil is recommended for the rinse phase. The concentrated shot of detergent esters in the cleaning phase softens these deposits and releases them it the flowing oil, but some of the residue clings to metal parts (some is caught in the filter). In the rinse phase with dino oil, the concentration of esters is far lower, so the residue that was clinging to metal parts gets rinsed away. If you have synthetic oil for the rinse phase, the esters present in the oil can cause the residue to continue to cling to metal parts rather than get rinsed away.

On the other hand, normal usage of synthetic oil, with the esters in it, cleans some of this residue on its own. If you don’t have a huge sludge issue (which you probably won’t if you run synthetic oil at sane OCI’s), and all you want auto-rx to do is some additional cleaning (like getting rid of some small amount of hard deposits, e.g. on the rings), the running a synthetic during the rinse phase should be OK. In this case, it’s not like you have a whole bunch of residue left over from the cleaning phase clinging to internal parts.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: kang

....On the other hand, normal usage of synthetic oil, with the esters in it, cleans some of this residue on its own. If you don’t have a huge sludge issue (which you probably won’t if you run synthetic oil at sane OCI’s), and all you want auto-rx to do is some additional cleaning (like getting rid of some small amount of hard deposits, e.g. on the rings), the running a synthetic during the rinse phase should be OK. In this case, it’s not like you have a whole bunch of residue left over from the cleaning phase clinging to internal parts.


This is where you go from not getting it to just flat out wrong. Motor oils, synthetic or not, over any time interval cannot achieve what Auto-RX does, even in a maintenance dose during extended OCIs.

 

[Rick20]

I would say that none of the ingredients of ARX are found in 99% of the available motor oils for gas and diesel powered motors.

ARX lists their patent number on their web site. There you can find the chemistry used. Or a little search time on this site you will likely find many posts of the chemistry.

Well said in your post Baltic.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
It seems to me that auto-rx is basically a concentrated dose of the detergent esters found in all oils, especially synthetics. Not that this is a bad thing. I’m sure there are some differences between the various esters, of course.


Just as there are different types of lubes for different applications, there are different esters for different applications.

There are major differences in chemistries and results between the various esters used in motor oils and the esters found in AUTO-RX.

 

[BrianWC]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: kang

....On the other hand, normal usage of synthetic oil, with the esters in it, cleans some of this residue on its own. If you don’t have a huge sludge issue (which you probably won’t if you run synthetic oil at sane OCI’s), and all you want auto-rx to do is some additional cleaning (like getting rid of some small amount of hard deposits, e.g. on the rings), the running a synthetic during the rinse phase should be OK. In this case, it’s not like you have a whole bunch of residue left over from the cleaning phase clinging to internal parts.


This is where you go from not getting it to just flat out wrong. Motor oils, synthetic or not, over any time interval cannot achieve what Auto-RX does, even in a maintenance dose during extended OCIs.


Amen. I thought the same thing and set out to prove it by running a fill of redline taking before and after pics. Ummm, didn't do a thing for me.

 

[kang]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
It seems to me that auto-rx is basically a concentrated dose of the detergent esters found in all oils, especially synthetics. Not that this is a bad thing. I’m sure there are some differences between the various esters, of course.


Just as there are different types of lubes for different applications, there are different esters for different applications.

There are major differences in chemistries and results between the various esters used in motor oils and the esters found in AUTO-RX.



Well sure. That’s what I meant when I said this:

Quote:
I’m sure there are some differences between the various esters, of course. For example, oil manufacturers need to consider longer OCI’s, while auto-rx only needs to run for 2,500 miles or so. The chemistry of auto-rx can be modified to reflect this.


There are other considerations besides OCI’s, which is why I said “for example” before that particular consideration. Auto-rx can take all these considerations into account, and change the chemistry of the esters accordingly.

Every oil manufacturer has their particular form(s) of detergent. I’m sure each manufacturer would tell you that theirs is the best, but clearly some work better than others. Frank has found/developed one that works very well. Perhaps it is the best of all of them, I don’t know. You’d have to do a controlled laboratory experiment of each of them, at the same dosage (which is a key element), same conditions, etc, to say which is best, but I’m sure auto-rx would be near the top of the charts.

Quote:
Motor oils, synthetic or not, over any time interval cannot achieve what Auto-RX does, even in a maintenance dose during extended OCIs.


Again, “well sure.” Nothing in my original post contradicts this. Auto-rx is a concentrated dose of a proprietary detergent.

Quote:
I would say that none of the ingredients of ARX are found in 99% of the available motor oils for gas and diesel powered motors.


One more time: “well sure.” There is a patent on auto-rx, so it is certainly not found in available motor oils. But motor oils do have detergents in them.

The original poster said this:

Quote:
The way I feel about it is that it's basically a concentrated shot of all the cleaners normally found in typical motor oil.


I agreed with this, but perhaps it would be better so modify it slightly:

The way I feel about it is that it's basically a concentrated shot of [a proprietary] cleaner [similar to the cleaners] normally found in typical motor oil.

 

[Quest]

Ester is not like your ordinary motor oil "detergent", this it cannot be perceived as a concentrated shot of xyz cleaner normally found in typical motor oil.

Afterall: no OTC motor oil comes with additional addition of ester to boost it's performance, thus you cannot compare apples with oranges.



Q.

 

[badtlc]

If you can find an average run of the mill oil that uses Ester for any reason, let alone cleaning, please share.