What is so bad about Honda Z1 ATF?

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adamg

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I have seen many posts where Z1 has been described as marginal, or that it is a terrible ATF. On the other hand, some say they swear by it and not to use anything else.

So I am curiuos, what is it that is so bad? Is it just not suited to longer OCIs? Or is it bad no matter what the OCI is?

Has anybody ever actually seen concrete evidence that Z1 contributed to a trans failure (with proper maintenance)?

This seems to be the one OEM fluid that gets so much attention and has this LOVE/HATE relationship.
 
Z-1 is not a bad lubricant for my dad's civic has been using it (factory/OE ATF Z-1 for the life of his trannie, and it got over 130kkms to date.

This is a 7th-gen civic we are talking about.

Q.
 
Seems to do well in the 4 bangers. Oxidizes quickly in the 6 cylinder models. It seems like Hondas need a highly friction modified fluid. If someone made a Honda fluid with the same additives as Z1 but with synthetic base oil I think, personally, we would have a real winner.
 
How do you figure that the new M1 ATF is approved by Honda? It has a list of recommended applications like all the other fluids out there, but the site only says it's approved for Allison C-4.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil_1_Synthetic_ATF.asp

I'm nonetheless curious about how this new stuff does in Honda V6 transmissions v. Amsoil. Whereas M1 has separate fluids for Mercon SP and GM Dexron VI, Amsoil rolls both of those into the same one. Makes me wonder how much of a compromise is made. Then again, Amsoil atf users have nothing but good things to say. And the M1 Syn ATF is a more viscous fluid (cold weather operation) but has a lower flash point?
 
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Seems to do well in the 4 bangers. Oxidizes quickly in the 6 cylinder models. It seems like Hondas need a highly friction modified fluid. If someone made a Honda fluid with the same additives as Z1 but with synthetic base oil I think, personally, we would have a real winner.


That is what seems to be the case. The people who stand by it, do it because of the friction modifiers, and the ones who hate it seem to prefer a synthetic. I never really thought about the engine size, that's a good point.

From what I've seen, most problems in the past were linked to poorly built/engineered trannies rather than a bad fluid, since they were failing at a relatively low mileage. (Older Accords, 01-03 7th gen Civics, some Acuras)

While I was browsing the M1 websites, I noticed something strange, the M1 USA site lists it as compatible with Z1 applications (among many others):

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Other_Products/Mobil_1_Synthetic_ATF.aspx

BUT, if I select Canada and go to the Canadian site, they only mention C-4, Mercon and Dexron.

http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENPVLMOMobil_1_Synthetic_ATF.asp

Maybe M1's website guys are just lazy? If so, why not just send us Canadians over to the USA site for that info?
 
Originally Posted By: adamg
.

From what I've seen, most problems in the past were linked to poorly built/engineered trannies rather than a bad fluid


That is true, but when your design problems cause excess heat build up in certain areas, a poor lubricant is going to exasperate the problem even more.
 
I swear by it, its good fluid, just change it more often then what honda/acura recommends.

I do 25-30K on the RDX (km's) and 15-20k on the prelude (mainly because it is a delicate tranny so it could use early replenishment.

182k on the prelude, 36k on the rdx and no issues at all. Even with the nasty winter we have been having up here in the North (Canada).
 
I have a '99 v6 accord with over 125k miles on the odometer. In addition, I have towed this vehicle, with all four wheel down, behind a motorhome for an additional 40k miles for a total of over 160k miles. (Many of these miles were in the southwest in August at temps over 100F and speeds over 70mph)

I have used nothing but z1, changed approximately every 40k miles and have had zero problems. Trans. still works great.

I have heard of v6 transmission problems in Hondas, but my experience with the v6 and Z1 has been excellent.

I do recall reading on this site in the distant past that the z1 chemistry is extremely different then other fluids. Something about extremely high sulphur levels or something wierd like that.

In summary, Z1 in my v6 Honda has performed well under difficult conditions.
 
I think the fluid is OK for Honda's. Honda's transmission design is such that the hybrid system shears fluid more than most.

Honda's Z1 fluid has more zinc additives than is allowed for other transmissions, so don't use it in other makes.
 
Why do you call Honda's transmission design a hybrid design?

Do you not think the fluid's poor tolerance to heat is an issue, especially since their design flaws create for situations as such?

Are there any fluids you would recommend substituting it with?

Thanks!

Vig

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I think the fluid is OK for Honda's. Honda's transmission design is such that the hybrid system shears fluid more than most.

Honda's Z1 fluid has more zinc additives than is allowed for other transmissions, so don't use it in other makes.
 
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Why do you call Honda's transmission design a hybrid design?

Do you not think the fluid's poor tolerance to heat is an issue, especially since their design flaws create for situations as such?

Are there any fluids you would recommend substituting it with?

Thanks!

Vig

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I think the fluid is OK for Honda's. Honda's transmission design is such that the hybrid system shears fluid more than most.

Honda's Z1 fluid has more zinc additives than is allowed for other transmissions, so don't use it in other makes.


In a honda tranny, use Z1 all else use Amsoil ATF
 
Honda is too arrogant to use a "proper" planetary gearset based auto tranny - they decided to base theirs off an regular 5 speed manual, replacing the synchros and most of the shifting mechanism with hydraulically-controlled clutches. A shift fork is used to shift between forward and reverse.
 
Originally Posted By: adamg
I have seen many posts where Z1 has been described as marginal, or that it is a terrible ATF. On the other hand, some say they swear by it and not to use anything else.

So I am curiuos, what is it that is so bad? Is it just not suited to longer OCIs? Or is it bad no matter what the OCI is?

Has anybody ever actually seen concrete evidence that Z1 contributed to a trans failure (with proper maintenance)?

This seems to be the one OEM fluid that gets so much attention and has this LOVE/HATE relationship.


It probably works just fine in the prescribed application. Can I suggest that you take a look at the other thread where Jim Allen and I were having a similar discussion.
 
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf


It probably works just fine in the prescribed application.


That's my point of asking this question. I don't think Z1 is that bad (and I know I'm not an expert), but it seems to work just fine in Honda transmissions. The big issue seems to be the short OCIs required.

I'm sure on paper, a lot of other ATFs look superior, but reality seems to tell a different story. I understand some have had success with other synthetic ATFs, but the majority seem to stick with Z1.

These transmissions are a completely different animal, I guess that's why the fluid is so different.
 
Originally Posted By: adamg [/quote

From what I've seen, most problems in the past were linked to poorly built/engineered trannies rather than a bad fluid, since they were failing at a relatively low mileage. (Older Accords,
what this include 92 accords? I might have to sell mine.
 
Originally Posted By: nthach
Honda is too arrogant to use a "proper" planetary gearset based auto tranny - they decided to base theirs off an regular 5 speed manual, replacing the synchros and most of the shifting mechanism with hydraulically-controlled clutches. A shift fork is used to shift between forward and reverse.


Too arrogant? You know, high end manufacturers like Mercedes are using this same design...automatically shifted manuals. That's how you can get these 7 speed transmissions. Ever try to get 7 gears out of a planetary gearset? Do you know that the automatically shifted manual is a lot lighter? It's a superior design if anything...

Now so why did they have failure issues? Well, when Honda came out with this design (derived from Indy cars, by the way) the transmissions shifted very sharply. This was great for the transmissions, but people complained. They were used to the typical slush box. So Honda incorporated these clutch packs that softened the engagement to please the average American car buyer. Well, they didn't get that right the first time. Then when they went to the 5-speed design, they added a third shaft just like all 5 speed manuals have over 4 speed 2-shaft designs. They missed the extra lubrication required, hence the Accord 03-04 failures cured by the extra trans fluid jet.

All of this obsession on here over Honda autos and how horrible Z1 fluid is clearly is total bogus. The clutch packs they used in the late 90's early 00's to make them smoother needed refinement, and the third shaft in '03 needed some lube. You can change your trans fluid every week, use Amsoil, whatever and it won't fix those problems. Just drain and fill with Z1 every 30K and it will be fine. If it fails, it wasn't due to the fluid.
 
Originally Posted By: JMHC
Originally Posted By: nthach
Honda is too arrogant to use a "proper" planetary gearset based auto tranny - they decided to base theirs off an regular 5 speed manual, replacing the synchros and most of the shifting mechanism with hydraulically-controlled clutches. A shift fork is used to shift between forward and reverse.


Too arrogant? You know, high end manufacturers like Mercedes are using this same design...automatically shifted manuals. That's how you can get these 7 speed transmissions. Ever try to get 7 gears out of a planetary gearset? Do you know that the automatically shifted manual is a lot lighter? It's a superior design if anything...

Now so why did they have failure issues? Well, when Honda came out with this design (derived from Indy cars, by the way) the transmissions shifted very sharply. This was great for the transmissions, but people complained. They were used to the typical slush box. So Honda incorporated these clutch packs that softened the engagement to please the average American car buyer. Well, they didn't get that right the first time. Then when they went to the 5-speed design, they added a third shaft just like all 5 speed manuals have over 4 speed 2-shaft designs. They missed the extra lubrication required, hence the Accord 03-04 failures cured by the extra trans fluid jet.

All of this obsession on here over Honda autos and how horrible Z1 fluid is clearly is total bogus. The clutch packs they used in the late 90's early 00's to make them smoother needed refinement, and the third shaft in '03 needed some lube. You can change your trans fluid every week, use Amsoil, whatever and it won't fix those problems. Just drain and fill with Z1 every 30K and it will be fine. If it fails, it wasn't due to the fluid.


F1 derived lollololol. 7 speeds with a planetary is no harder than with a manual. Where do you get this stuff?

Honda autos suck end of story. You can't find a conventional planetary transmission that has as high of a failure rate as the Honda units. Z1 sucks too.

Are the class action lawsuits on the transmissions and the UOAs on the Z1 not enough for you?
 
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