What is going on with my battery? leaks...weak...

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Are you sure that's a Johnson Controls battery-I don't remember seeing vent caps like that on an Interstate before, although the Duralast in my 300D looks like that (and I haven't noticed any leakage).


All I know is that I've read all over that Interstate = JCI. I did not find any JCI logos or printing on the battery unfortunately. Mind you the Kirklands at Costco (also supposed to be JCI) don't have anything like that either. For what it's worth, an online search says that Duralast = JCI too.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: JimPghPA

If the Hydrometer shows 100 percent you are probably over charging it.



An update on this. I did not rest the battery overnight, and I did not have anything handy to load it up to remove surface charge but I measured the SG again while I was removing electrolyte. (I removed about 3 cups of electrolyte and it's still well above the top of the plates).

Now it indicates 75%. Most cells aren't floating the 4th ball and one suspends it midway. Battery temp 25C, terminal voltage 12.83V (see above - just off of bulk charging).

If anything, in those conditions, I should get a false high reading, right? So, if anything, I'm testing at less than 75%. I wonder why the results changed so dramatically since Sept. I didn't make the noob mistake of floating the balls on bubbles or not "tempering" the tester with acid before taking an actual reading....

I heard someone mention once that Carquest batteries might be Dekas. I don't know if that applies to Carquest in Canada too. Maybe I'll go see if I can find out tomorrow.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
It is 2005 battery and you are in Canada. Why are you even *thinking* about this battery? Buy a new one today!


The original battery in my Expedition finally gave up the ghost last year. That is a 2002 vehicle. The original Motorcraft lasted 8 years.

That's about "par for the course" in terms of our experience with these batteries. The original in my parent's 2000 lasted until 2008.

My dad's Townie is still on the original, but it has much lower mileage. It is a 2003.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Warstud

If the vehicle is a daily driver I see no reason for the battery tender. Use that if the vehicle sits for weeks without being started.


I follow your reasoning. It's a daily driver but sometimes that daily use is dropping a kid off at school, picking up and that's it. Sometimes there's very short trips as I don't commute in it and we have a lot fewer long trips than we used to.

Other E39 owners indicate that it doesn't take all that long to start whittling down your battery's charge in just a couple of weeks. Whenever I do throw the tender on, it usually charges at it's charge rate (somewhere between 1-2A) for a couple of hours before ticking over to desulfate. Terminal voltage never seems to go much beyond 13.5 at the highest but I haven't made a point of doing any intense observation.

For the record, it's one of these but before they released the "plus" model. Very similar specs.

http://www.batteryminders.com/batterycha...io-p-16134.html

 

[wrcsixeight]

Most hydrometers are notoriously inaccurate. They are good for comparing cells against each other, and if not rinsed completely are one time use.

Your charging voltages are checked at idle? At higher rpms the voltage can be much different.

In your photos, the cells are overfilled.

Interstate starting batteries are made by JC
Interstate Deep cycle battteries are made by US battery

Desulfating chargers will not keep a battery healthy forever.

While you will hear reports of batteries lasting 8 and 10 years, 5 years is perfectly respectable.

A daily driver does not need a maintenance charger.

If your charging voltages do not rise above 14.5 volts at higher rpms, consider a sealed AGM battery like sears Diehard Platinum, made by odyssey

 

[Errtt]

"Most hydrometers are notoriously inaccurate".

I have a Refractometer.
I got mad one day using one of those floating ball things. I couldn't get it to read the same from one check to the next, even on the same cell. Sometimes I would see little bubbles on the balls etc. Then I went to the floating tube which was okay, but had to be careful that the floating tube didn't stick up against the housing (outer tube). Well I dropped that one day and broke it, so I bought the Refractometer. Since it cost more, I'm more careful with it.
Now I haven't used the Refractometer for a few years. I just do a DMM check on the battery once in awhile, and a load test. I just replace a the battery on the average of about every 4 years, sooner if it shows sign of dropping at a faster rate.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: wrcsixeight
Most hydrometers are notoriously inaccurate. They are good for comparing cells against each other, and if not rinsed completely are one time use.


Hmm, good to know. Special care wrt rinsing was not taken.

Quote:

Your charging voltages are checked at idle? At higher rpms the voltage can be much different.


All conditions. When placed in field test mode my instrument cluster will display its view of the system voltage so I've observed it in all kinds of conditions. While I would not consider it accurate enough to start talking about 0.1 or 0.2 volt differences, I trust it enough to show that the alternator is not totally whacked out. It's reading agrees fairly well with a Fluke DMM connected to the cig lighter.

Quote:

In your photos, the cells are overfilled.


I guess I need to pry the caps wherever I buy my next battery. I'll be "that guy".

Quote:

If your charging voltages do not rise above 14.5 volts at higher rpms, consider a sealed AGM battery like sears Diehard Platinum, made by odyssey


I'd be willing to bet a modest dinner that whatever Sears USA has isn't what Sears Canada has. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't shock me if Sears Canada didn't sell batteries at all. Their tool selection is pathetic compared to Sears USA. I'll try to track something down by the Odyssey name.

I hadn't really considered AGM before.

Ooooh. A quick google shows me AGM type Deka group 49s that look sexy for a battery. Ouch - the price... Lower Ah and higher CCA than a JCI MTP. And they have an "exact OE fit" line that comes in both flooded and AGM......

Thanks for getting me looking at this. The bank account might not appreciate it but there's some quality stuff here if I can find a place to purchase... I don't see this level of detail from Interstate/JCI although JCI seems to have the top quality rep right now...

The BMW dealer replacement batteries are nothing special in North America (Douglas, IIRC), don't last long and are super expensive. I'll have to see what the price is for an AGM technology exact OE fit from Deka. I'd love to go back to the proper OE venting etc... instead of the kludgy Interstate add-on - exact match venting is something the Deka lit specifically mentions.

 

[OVERKILL]

http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/InterchangeableGuide.aspx?part=BXT49

Ford Motorcraft BXT-49 battery

850CCA

36 Month replacement warranty. 100 month total warranty.

My suggestion

 

[wrcsixeight]

I should have typed that both Die Hard Platinum and Odyssey batteries are made by EnerSys.

For your application, amp hours are not really a consideration, cold cranking amps are. Amp hours are a measure of capacity, CCA is how much energy the battery can quickly release to crank the starter.

With their much lower resistance AGM batteries have higher CCA ratings than Flooded batteries of similar size, and can also be recharged faster at higher amp rates, but that does not necessarily mean your alternator will do so.

I did not know Sears Canada has a different product line.

 

[Chris142]

You have tested the volts but how many amps are being fed to it?

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Chris142
You have tested the volts but how many amps are being fed to it?


As I said, I cannot measure without an inductive setup. The ammeter function on my DMM is fused at 10A and there's no way I can get it inline and start the car without popping it. I will NOT disconnect the battery while the car is running because there are warnings all over in service manuals to never do that on this vehicle because of all the computers etc... possibly receiving voltage spikes without the battery to help dampen the system. Without a DC-capable inductive ammeter I can't measure what's happening in-car.

I've said that my tender is ~1A. My 10A charger was delivering about 5A when initially connected after the first time I noticed the droopy behaviour.

Current isn't pushed to a lead-acid battery, it's drawn by the battery. Lead-acid chemistry is charged by controlled-voltage, unlike NiCd, NiMH and some other chemistries that are charged by controlled current (i.e. charge at 300mA for 14-16 hours). A healthy but discharged lead acid cell will draw almost infinite current (with a limit based on internal resistance) from a charger. As the state of charge increases the terminal voltage will rise closer to that of the regulated charger output and the current draw by the battery will lower dramatically until it almost stops. Setting a voltage point higher than the battery can ever truly float to (like 15V) *will* force feed the battery so to speak and start electrolysis of the electrolyte.

Charging a lead-acid battery is sort of like equalizing water level in two tanks by a pipe connected at the desired level.. Charging NiMH is like turning on a tap and having a hose fill from above which continues to try to fill regardless of the level in the target pool. Bad analogies, but it's all that comes to mind at the moment.

If my alternator is putting out ~14V, it should be charging the battery just fine and there is NO way it could be overcharging it if 14V is agreed to be a safe charge voltage. If there was a high resistance connection on the way to the battery somewhere it should affect starting much more than charging, IMO.

My battery still seems to be able to source (start the car) and sink (charge at between 5-10A from a 10A rated plug in charger) current OK. What happens is that over a week of our typical usage (plenty of short trips in that) the terminal voltage starts to droop and the battery needs charging.

 

[Papa Bear]

What did Interstate say when you contacted them about this problem ??....

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
What did Interstate say when you contacted them about this problem ??....



For the first one that leaked everywhere but worked fine, I just went to an Interstate dealer and after contacting Interstate on my behalf it was eventually replaced (100%, I believe). They wanted to see it leak on the bench. Since it was replaced for free, maybe it did.

I haven't contacted anyone yet about this second one until I had ruled out the charging system or parasitic loss (which I now have).

I will probably contact Interstate about both the overfilling and the weak behaviour. I think I'm entitled to ~30% under the 85 month pro-rata warranty. There's a couple of catches I forsee, however:

1/ I bet that just like tires the warranty replacement program is against MSRP and not the street price for these batteries. 30% off of MSRP will probably be the same cost or more than the street price of the same battery, netting me nothing from the warranty. I had the same thing happen to me with tires once.

2/ If it still comes overfilled and with a tendency to leak, I don't know that I want another remote vented Interstate even if I get 30% off. I know JCI gets top marks and tons of people love their Interstates but I've had two remote vented ones in a row that were pukers.

I'll be contacting Interstate and looking for a local East Penn/Deka dealer next week. I'm going to see where I can get Deka's AGM line and/or "OE exact fit" line too, although they both may be too pricey to bother with compared to flooded. I have to say that I have a Deka POW-R-SURGE 70Ah gel cell that's probably 20 years old. I floated it with a big 12VDC power supply for a few years to power a bunch of amateur radio and communications stuff a long time ago, now I keep it handy to use with inverters during power failures. It still holds a great charge and has lots of power.

I think my latest measurements of 75% or less specific gravity immediately after bulk charging probably means that the battery's life is simply used up and it doesn't have the reserve capacity in this weather to maintain an adequately high charge between our longer road trips. If it were warmer I may not have even noticed any problems yet.

I will say that I'm very happy that this battery hasn't failed in the 10.4VDC stranding mode, which every battery the family has had prior to now has. I remember in the mid 90s the factory battery on my Integra failed in that way and, being stranded, I bought the "best" Canadian Tire Motomaster Eliminator with their best warranty. I needed a new battery every 18-24 months or so under that warranty plan. They were probably Exides, from what I've read. Sure the warranty covered most of the replacement cost (never 100%) but the stranding simply wasn't worth it. Luckily being a manual I perfected the art of bump starting alone in a parking lot - open the door, turn on the key to prime the fuel injection (still had 10.4V), put it in reverse, clutch with right foot, push on ground with left, pop clutch, push clutch, yank parking brake, engine running, drive to Canadian Tire and get a new battery. Luckily that thing would start with a 2' push. I don't want to try it with my 5 series unless absolutely necessary.

 

[eljefino]

You may wish to see if BMW will even allow a push start with all the anti theft stuff cars are coming with these days. I'd hate to have plan B not work.

Though I have a theory that most of those can still be started as long as they still have some power and the key is turned to (nonfunctioning) start position while popping the clutch.

Since your issues have been boiling electrolyte and not the sulfation which you so worry about, how about leaving the battery minder off the new battery as an experiment?

 

[The_Eric]

Craig in Canada, I too share your peeve about "puking" batteries. I cannot, nor will not tolerate it. You wont be disappointed if you make the switch to an East Penn manufactured battery. I've used nothing but E/P batteries for the past several years and had very little problems with them and absolutely no leakage or "puking".

The shop I work at installs Interstate batteries and I can say that I've seen more than a fair amount of them (and other JCI batteries) come in covered in their own goo.

I know you expressed your intentions of having the cell levels checked before you buy one, but you will not be able to if you buy an E/P made battery. The tops are sealed completely.

A while back, one of our parts suppliers brought an E/P rep with him to try to convince the owner to make the switch. Product aside, E/P strikes me as a very conscientious company that is trying to minimize their effect on the environment.

All in all, I will be a E/P user for many years to come and I hope this helps you make your decision.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
You may wish to see if BMW will even allow a push start with all the anti theft stuff cars are coming with these days. I'd hate to have plan B not work.


They say not to do it, but don't state why. I believe that I was in some scenario where I cycled the ignition while on the highway about 8 years ago and it refired without thinking it was stolen. On the other hand, I know that there is technology in place where if the alarm is engaged and the voltage falls below some point the alarm will sound powered by its own internal battery because it thinks someone is trying to steal the car by disconnecting the main battery. False alarms is how a lot of E39 owners find out they need a new battery. If the terminal voltage is 10.4V and one tries to unlock/disarm, enter, and then bump start I don't know just what will happen. Good point.

Quote:

Though I have a theory that most of those can still be started as long as they still have some power and the key is turned to (nonfunctioning) start position while popping the clutch.


I'm not sure this would work though. In the absence of any real sophistication in the starter electronics which locks out the starter motor, turning the key to start will drop the terminal voltage to near-zero and there won't be anything left to create spark or power the computers and injectors.


Quote:

Since your issues have been boiling electrolyte and not the sulfation which you so worry about, how about leaving the battery minder off the new battery as an experiment?


When I had the first puker I didn't even have my battery minder so it wasn't a factor in that adventure. The minder was bought for a fair weather car and it was on 24/7/365 and there were no leaks. I don't have the minder on this current car all the time, I usually just connect it up overnight once every 5-15 days whenever it occurs to me. I've never measured a terminal voltage over 13.5 and it's usually more like 13.0-13.2 when in desulfation mode. Both measurements are lower than the 13.8-14.0 seen when the engine is running.

I understand the rationale to "try it" and see if a replacement battery oozes. On the other hand, the key to preventing sulfation is to make sure that the battery is always in a state of 80%+ charge (regardless of the desulfation function in the tender). Based on the way my current battery weakens over the course of a week and then requires some kind of top-up my thinking is that my typical usage pattern isn't going to keep the battery fully topped up without some use of the tender. This battery is probably at the end of it's life and the lower reserve capacity is illustrating this discharging sooner than a new battery would, but the net result is still that the battery is dropping from 100% over time with the way this car is used at this point.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: The_Eric

All in all, I will be a E/P user for many years to come and I hope this helps you make your decision.


I'm glad to hear from a Deka fan. I get the impression that they have a lot more products with more specialization than JCI even though they may be "#2".

At least I could be sure than an AGM would never leak.

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
What did Interstate say when you contacted them about this problem ??....




I'll be contacting Interstate and looking for a local East Penn/Deka dealer next week. I'm going to see where I can get Deka's AGM line and/or "OE exact fit" line too, although they both may be too pricey to bother with compared to flooded. I have to say that I have a Deka POW-R-SURGE 70Ah gel cell that's probably 20 years old. I floated it with a big 12VDC power supply for a few years to power a bunch of amateur radio and communications stuff a long time ago, now I keep it handy to use with inverters during power failures. It still holds a great charge and has lots of power.




If you can get them, Penn Deka is what I'd go with as well. I put a Napa Legend 84 badged Penn Deka in my truck about a few months ago. AAA discount, out the door, for $100.

I've gone through enough Interstates - green top and black top. Mostly blown/bad cells - even had one explode.

 

[brianl703]

I've had a group 48 (next size down from that group 49) Johnson Controls battery in my Saab 93 since September. It has a Saab decal on it (was replaced under warranty shortly before it expired) but is supplied to the Saab dealer by Interstate.

There is no evidence of any leakage from that battery. The vent cap design is identical to your battery.

 

[Craig in Canada]

I'm planning to get a Deka. They also have a line of "OE exact fit" batteries for euro cars which seems pretty attractive. I haven't decided yet whether to get AGM or not.

OE exact fit flooded $188
AGM group 49 $247

I think my Interstate MTP-93 was about $160 5 years ago.