What Gun controllers don't want you to know

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The current role of what is the 'organized militia' seems clear, but the 'unorganized militia' seems to be kind of dead skunk.

http://www.adl.org/mwd/faq3.asp#3.4

13.26 What are the two major pieces of federal legislation concerning the militia after the ratification of the Constitution?

A. The 1792 Uniform Militia Act created a militia system that was very decentralized with every able bodied free male citizen required to do militia duty.

The 1903 **** Act recognized that compulsory militia service no longer existed. The organized militia, now called the National Guard, came under much greater federal control and received much higher federal funding.

3.50 When did the term "unorganized militia" originate?
A. The term "unorganized" did not begin to emerge until the 1830s and 1840s, when a massive wave of opposition destroyed the compulsory militia system. Nobody wanted to serve in the militia. State governors and legislators wanted to be able to accommodate this desire, but they were bound by the 1792 Uniform Militia Act, which stated that every white male aged 18-45 would be in the militia.
However, the 1792 Uniform Militia Act explicitly allowed the states to determine who was exempt from militia service. So states divided their militias into two sections, the "organized" militia and the "unorganized" militia. In this way, the letter, though not the spirit, of the 1792 law could be complied with. However, only the "organized" militia would have responsibilities. These people would be volunteers, people who actually wanted to perform militia service; they gradually evolved into the National Guard. These people would have uniforms, guns, and would drill, review and encamp.

The other people were the people who did NOT want to be in the militia. Accordingly, members of the "unorganized" militia were NOT supposed to perform any duty or carry any weapons or have any responsibilities. All that would remain was the nominal authority of the state over them for military manpower purposes. This group of people had no militia responsibilities at all (in some areas they had to register, like for the draft today). In this way states could flaunt the spirit of the 1792 Uniform Militia Act, while nominally keeping to the letter of it.

The term "unorganized militia" was kept in use in subsequent decades as a statutory "reminder" that the state could still obligate its citizens to perform military duty, should it ever want them to. Eventually, U.S. law in the early twentieth century picked up this same usage for the same reason: by creating the "unorganized militia," the United States could guarantee usage of this manpower for military purposes, should the (remote) need ever arise.

But being in the "unorganized militia" conveys to you no rights, only the possibility of responsibilities. All it means is that you belong to that class of the militia which has no responsibilities. Being in the militia allows you to do not a single thing, because only the state and federal governments can create (working together) active militia systems. To date, their interest in doing so has largely concentrated on the National Guard.

Again, let me emphasize that there is not a single right guaranteed to you by virtue of your being in the militia. Here I am excepting the right to keep and bear arms, not to necessarily agree or disagree with any particular interpretation of the Second Amendment, but rather to avoid gun control issues which are irrelevant to this issue. [MP]

3.65 The 1990 U.S. Supreme Court decision of Perpich v. Department of Defense provides an excellent summary of the history of the militia from 1792 to the present.

A. The Supreme Court [all excerpts are from 110 S.Ct. 2418] in 1990 held that Congress may authorize members of the National Guard of the United States to be ordered to active federal duty for purposes of training outside the United States without either consent of the state governor or declaration of national emergency. The Court, in an unanimous decision, traced the history of the militia starting at 2422 (footnotes and citations excluded):

"Two conflicting themes, developed at the Constitutional Convention and repeated in debates over military policy during the next century, led to a compromise in the text of the Constitution and in later statutory enactments. On the one hand, there was the a widespread fear that a national standing Army posed an intolerable threat to individual liberty and to the sovereignty of the separate states, while on the other hand, there was the recognition of the danger of relying on inadequately trained soldiers as the primary means of providing for the common defense. "Thus Congress was authorized both to raise and support a national Army and also to organize "the Militia."

"In the early years of the Republic, Congress did neither. In 1792, it did pass a statute that purported to establish "an Uniform Militia throughout the United States," but its detailed command that every able-bodied male citizen [Note that the Court left out the word white, which was not a change made by Congress until 1862] between the ages of 18 and 45 be enrolled therein and equip himself with appropriate weaponry was virtually ignored for more than a century, during which time the militia proved to be a decidedly unreliable fighting force. The statute was repealed in 1901. In that year President Theodore Roosevelt declared: "Our militia law is obsolete and worthless." The process of transforming the "National Guard of the several States" into an effective fighting force then began.

"The **** Act [of 1903] divided the class of able-bodied male citizens between 18 and 45 into an "organized militia" to be known as the National Guard of the several states and the remainder of which was then described as the "reserve militia" and which later statutes have termed the "unorganized militia." The statute created a table of organization for the National Guard conforming to that of the Regular Army, and provided that federal funds and Regular Army instructors should be used to train its members.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
Is Alexander Hamilton asinine too?

"The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss. "


Wasn't Alexander Hamilton killed in a duel?
 
So, it seems that we can't ignore 'well regulated militia' when speaking of the right to bear arms. It also seems that the 'well regulated militia' is something more than just the 'people', otherwise there would have been no need to distinguish between the two. It's also important to remember that arms for hunting, self defense, etc., although proposed and evidently considered, were not provided the explicit protection that arms used in a well regulated militia are. Another exercise is to try to reword the amendment, to see if the meaning changes significantly. It doesn't seem to.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

Edits below:

As a well regulated Militia, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

In a well regulated Militia the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

The right of the people, as a well regulated Militia, to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

The right of the people, in a well regulated Militia, to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, as a well regulated Militia, shall not be infringed

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, in a well regulated Militia, shall not be infringed
 
No, 'well regulated militia' is not something more than the people. It is telling you what the people with a right to bear arms become. And the reason it is necesary they have that right: for the security of a FREE state.
 
Assuming for the sake of argument that a country invaded by a foreign power, having a large proportion of its adults with legal access to weapons, resists. The invading power has helicopter gunships, heavy weapons, trained urban warfare cadres, a resolute and brutal approach to reprisals. The outcome: eventually the end of strong overt resistance, and a heavy loss of life both insurgent and civilian. Continued, long-term low-scale resistance. Contrast this with a society which does not have access legally to weapons. Outcome? Weapons are obtained through the market or sympathisers, and provided to resistance fighters. Outcome: similar process, similar drawn out conflict. Benefit of constitutional "right" to bear arms? Not obvious. De-merits: greater pool of weapons for undisciplined use, and unregulable leakage into criminal hands. Outcome: homicide rate several times that of similar states.
 
Homicide rates lower in states with banned guns? How about murder? I'm not even going to go there as it's been disproven many times on this site.

Armed populace not a deterent to invasion? Sorry you lose again. It sure was a deterent to the US in Somalia and even today in Iraq.
 
JT: re murder and gun use, I don't think so. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/810522.stm

Besides, you're missing the point. Civilian guns are pipsqueaks wielded by, for the most part, untrained people. In a fight against a trained military, only a few would remain alive after the initial onslaught. Thats the point: there is no point in a militia that can't put up a fight or goes AWOL.
 
Yeah, most weapons in the hands of civilians in the US are small caliber but since nearly half of the households in the US has firearms, it would take one **** of an invading army to overcome >100M pipsqeaks! My 60+ weapons would be quite vocal!
 
Well I would like to see hard numbers and the exact offenses.
If you compare results in cities in the US with banned arms from law-abiding citizens, to ones with no such mis-treatment and distrust of the citizenry you see how it affects crime. Take Chicago and Washinton DC for example.
I don't even own a gun...It's just common sense to me.
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Back to citizens againsts an army...like blokey said >100Million vs. how many in US military? Honestly not sure but we have slightly over 100,000 in Mideast and we are drawing on Reserves and thats getting thin too. So say 200,000 versus 100million ... I don't care what weapons either has. Do the math. Unless someone literally wipes out the entire coutry with thousands of nukes, they have no chance. And what's the point of that? it would be inhabitable.

[ June 24, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]
 
Jason and Bolkey you are correct in what you are saying. These left wing liberals will try to make guns look bad and distort the truth in any way they can in hopes that all guns will eventually be taken away from free people. Yes, over 100,000,000 million gun owners in this country would make an unstopable force even if half of them would not fight that 40 to 50 million would still be unstopable. If the S*** ever hit the fan I bet these liberals will wish they had them selves a nice rifel or hand gun or they might be running over to their gun loving neighbors house for protection.
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A little off topic but I always ask people who tell me how bad guns are and how they should out lawed "sence you are so against guns why don't you put a sign in you front lawn saying GUN FREE HOME? They never do....I wonder why?
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Also Alcohol/drinks kill FAR FAR more people in the country and around the world then then fire arms do. I guess we need to ban beer as well....and cars.....
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Jason Troxell said: "No, 'well regulated militia' is not something more than the people. It is telling you what the people with a right to bear arms become. And the reason it is necesary they have that right: for the security of a FREE state."

The right to bear arms does not exist seperate from that required for a well regulated militia; there is not a general right to bear arms where in some cases the arms might be used in a militia. As previously mentioned the minority reply from the Pennsylania convention on the Bill of Rights proposed that the right to bear arms existed for hunting, self defense, etc., in addition to use in a militia, but that is not what ended up in the Bill of Rights. Instead, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." is what was ratified. This is important as a general right to bear arms was proposed and rejected.

It's also important to remember that the Bill of Rights were proposed and initially ratified two years after Constitution, which contains the Militia clauses below. Congress is "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia...." and " The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States.." is what was first ratified. A compromise between the Federalists and anti-Federalists on how to provide checks and balances between the federal and state governments resulted in the 2nd Amendment.

******************
Clause 15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Clause 16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Clause 1: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment
******************
 
FBI crime rate data, and national gun survey data. One item not mentioned often is that starting 1993 Congress tightened up some of the FFL (federal firearms licencse for buying and selling firearms) laws and the ATF started doing a lot more investigations of FFL holders, the result being that the number of FFL holders dropped over 60% from 1993 to 1999.

2002 Murder rates - per 100k population
Midwest 5.1
Northeast 4.1
South 6.8
West 5.7
US 5.6

1994
Col 1 %Households w/guns
Col 2 %Households w/handguns
Col 3 Murder Rate - per 100k
east 29 14 7.1
midwest 49 16 7.5
west 49 26 9.4
south 59 31 10.7
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
FBI crime rate data, and national gun survey data. One item not mentioned often is that starting 1993 Congress tightened up some of the FFL (federal firearms licencse for buying and selling firearms) laws and the ATF started doing a lot more investigations of FFL holders, the result being that the number of FFL holders dropped over 60% from 1993 to 1999.

2002 Murder rates - per 100k population
Midwest 5.1
Northeast 4.1
South 6.8
West 5.7
US 5.6

1994
Col 1 %Households w/guns
Col 2 %Households w/handguns
Col 3 Murder Rate - per 100k
east 29 14 7.1
midwest 49 16 7.5
west 49 26 9.4
south 59 31 10.7


I think its pretty obvious to anyone who would want to think about it that a gun in a home is many many times more likely to kill a friend or relative or household member than a person breaking into a house.

Most folks owning handguns and other guns really don't have the common sense or gun handling skills. (Just go to a gun shop and watch how the customer handles a handgun-Garanteed he will point it somewhere he shouldn't at least a dozen times
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)

The above facts should not though abridge my right to own a firearm or posess a Carry Permit.

[ June 24, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Al ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by Al:
...I think its pretty obvious to anyone who would want to think about it that a gun in a home is many many times more likely to kill a friend or relative or household member than a person breaking into a house....

Actually it's not that obvious. Data from NSC:

code:



Deaths Due to Unintentional injuries



Accident

Type Total

All Automobile 43,000

Falls 16,200

Poisoning by solids, liquids 11,700

Pedestrian1 5,300

Drowning 3,900

Fires, burns 3,600

Suffocation by ingested object 3,400

Firearms 600

Poisoning by gases, vapors 400

All other causes 14,500

TOTAL 97,300


Didn't have room to fit breakdown of age groops.

600 total accidents out of how many guns? And considering you are more likely to die in your car, simply falling down, poisoned, crossing street, drowning, from fire, suffocating, to name a few than by a gun accident, they don't seem to be missused that often. (I don't doubt you than many may be poorly educated, but it doesn't affect accident rate as much as you stated)
In fact the only tracked accidental cause of death more likely to kill you is poisonous gasses and only by a small margin.

Would you not cross the street for fear of accidental death? Or not go swimming for fear of same? Much less drive your car, as that is 70 times more likely to kill you than a gun accident.

Now I just need to find number of burglaries stopped with a firearm.
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Bet it was more than 600
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. I have a feeling very little of those are tracked...
 
Thats because you are forgetting that having a gun carries with it both intentional use (not covered by the stats quoted) and unintentional use. The totality is that if your ordinary citizen has a gun it will be used. Temper is an awful leveller. QED.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
Originally posted by Al:
[qb] 600 total accidents out of how many guns? And considering you are more likely to die in your car, simply falling down, poisoned, crossing street, drowning, from fire, suffocating, to name a few than by a gun accident, they don't seem to be missused that often.
Well..I'm the last to argue against gun control ( or you
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). I have heard in the past that it was "X" Times more likely for a gun to kill a family member, etc than a prowler. And really I know (knew) several folks who died by a gun at home or killed someone other than a burgular-as in accident.

So I'm not arguing (discussing
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) the fact that the percentage is very, very low...just that the home gun is way more likely to do evil than good
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In 2000, there were 28,663 firearm-related deaths in the United States, including 16,586 (58%) suicides, 11,071 (39%) homicides (including 270 deaths due to legal intervention), and 1,006 (4%) undetermined/unintentional firearm deaths. CDC/National Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 50, No. 16, September 16, 2002, p. 69.

In the United States in 2000, 64% of all homicides and 57% of all suicides resulted from the use of a firearm. CDC/National Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 50, No. 16, September 16, 2002, p. 44.

Firearm injuries are the second leading cause of injury death in the United States, and have killed more than 28,000 Americans every year since 1972. In three states (Alaska, Maryland and Nevada) and the District of Columbia, firearm death rates in 1998 surpassed those for motor vehicles--the number one cause of injury-related death in the United States.CDC/National Center for Health Statistics, 2002
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
In 2000, there were 28,663 firearm-related deaths in the United States, including 16,586 (58%) suicides, 11,071 (39%) homicides (including 270 deaths due to legal intervention), and 1,006 (4%) undetermined/unintentional firearm deaths. CDC/National Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 50, No. 16, September 16, 2002, p. 69.

In the United States in 2000, 64% of all homicides and 57% of all suicides resulted from the use of a firearm. CDC/National Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 50, No. 16, September 16, 2002, p. 44.

Firearm injuries are the second leading cause of injury death in the United States, and have killed more than 28,000 Americans every year since 1972. In three states (Alaska, Maryland and Nevada) and the District of Columbia, firearm death rates in 1998 surpassed those for motor vehicles--the number one cause of injury-related death in the United States.CDC/National Center for Health Statistics, 2002


It's called culling the herd.
 
Often when someone is accused of supporting 'gun control' there seems to be an assumption that most gun owners don't support 'gun control'. Surveys taken for over the last 20 years on the subject indicate otherwise. Although the surveys are based upon a small sample, something like over 2000 people, the historical trends indicate that they're fairly repeatable and hence reliable.

A common accusation is that 'they're trying to take all of the guns', but only 16% of non-gun owners favor banning handguns. It's interesting that on a number of issues non-gun owners in a gun owning household, typically spouses of gun owners, favor more restrictions on guns than non-gun owners. In summary the stances that one commonly hears from 'pro-gun' supporters typically represent the opinion of a minority, often a small minority, of gun owners in the US.

2001 National Gun Policy Survey 33
Portion of Table 10. Attitudes Towards Guns by Gun Ownership

1st number Personally owns gun
2nd number Gun in household
3rd number No Gun in household

62.5 77.0 85.5 Police permit before purchase
66.6 84.2 80.1 Checks on private sales of guns
61.1 82.3 81.4 Mandatory registration of handguns
61.5 82.0 82.2 Keep guns from criminals, even if harder for law-abiding
63.9 77.1 76.3 Requiring that all new handguns be personalized
72.4 77.5 72.6 Mandatory background check and 5-day waiting period
38.6 59.4 72.4 Handgun owners must at least be licensed and trained
37.2 38.8 60.2 Concealed carrying only for those with special needs
2.8 3.6 15.8 Total ban on handguns
46.8 58.3 56.8 Illegal gun sales punished more than illegal drug sales
45.2 58.6 72.5 Less safe if more gun carrying in community
13.7 16.0 55.3 Home less safe with handgun
 
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