What form do additives come in pre-blending?

[Lethal1ty17]

All the time I read about additive packs for Brand X vs. Brand Y having more moly, calcium, boron, sodium, etc in their blends. My question is:

are these additives in a super fine powder form sitting in a tub in the corner of the SOPUS/BP/XOM warehouse like finely ground powdered sugar? How are they made and refined?

Just curious. I read about additives all the time but never where they really come from or how they themselves are processed.

 

[LargeCarManX2]

viscosity improvers are large blocks of goop......or sheets of goop....VI blocks

 

[Pablo]

Depends on the additive, but they are all oil soluble and come in oil carriers - ie an oil solvent. Some, VII's are large blocks that need to be melted.

 

[Lethal1ty17]

so basically solvents get mixed into the finished product? that doesnt sound good. anyone have pictures of these VI blocks?

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Lethal1ty17
so basically solvents get mixed into the finished product? that doesnt sound good. anyone have pictures of these VI blocks?


No, you misunderstood the basic chemistry in statement. You like most average folks think of a solvent as naphtha or paint thinner, etc. The solvent in this case is a light oil, a carrier oil. (not to get too distracted but water is a solvent as well, for say salt)

I think you mean VII. Viscosity Index Improver

 

[Lethal1ty17]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Lethal1ty17
so basically solvents get mixed into the finished product? that doesnt sound good. anyone have pictures of these VI blocks?


No, you misunderstood the basic chemistry in statement. You like most average folks think of a solvent as naphtha or paint thinner, etc. The solvent in this case is a light oil, a carrier oil. (not to get too distracted but water is a solvent as well, for say salt)

I think you mean VII. Viscosity Index Improver


gotchya. i thought it seemed a bit fishy that a solvent such as naphtha would make it into oil, that was a "duh" moment. and yes i meant does anyone have a picture of these blocks of VII's.

 

[Pablo]

Maybe do a Google image search. I do think most new VII's are thick liquids.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: LargeCarManX2
viscosity improvers are large blocks of goop......or sheets of goop....VI blocks


I saw that on the Modern Marvels episode devoted to oil. Blocks of VI are added to the oil when it's being formulated.

 

[Ken2]

Chevron Oronite is one of several additive package suppliers. Here's their description of their OLOA 55501 package for GF-5 motor oils:
http://www.chevron.com/products/oronite/products/gf5.asp
http://www.chevron.com/products/oronite/pdfs/GF5Ad6012010.pdf
"OLOA® 55501 not only meets GF-5 requirements, but
also simplifies logistics as a single-tank product that can
be used for both conventional and synthetic lubricants
with various base oils."

 

[MolaKule]

Note: What follows is an oversimplification of the blending process for a fully formulated commercial motor oil. Here's the way it usually breaks down for additive composition and blending say for a PCMO or HDD (values in cSt at 212F or 100C):

Basic additive package - Liquid - 80 to 200 - May contain the detergent, anti-wear, anti-rust, friction modifier such as moly, ZDDP anti-oxidant/anti-wear, metal deactivators.

Ashless Dispersant - Liquid - 80 to 736 depending on type

Viscosity Index Improver - Liquid - 150 to 1,500 depending on type

Depending on application, you may have to have additional anti-oxidants, friction modifiers, etc.

Select your choice of weapons, err, base oils to make the correct viscosity. Base oils are usually a mix of two or more viscosities.

Heat additives so they flow better. Heat base oil as well and run all additive components and base oils through computer-controlled measuring/mixing valves and into mixing tanks. Keep warm until bottled.

And don't let Homer Simpson anywhere near the control board.

 

[kasedian]

Thanks for the lesson, MolaKule! And on top of it, you have to tell all the additives to get along and play nice together! After looking this site over for the past month or so, I cant believe how much I DIDNT know about oil and additives, and such. Guys like you are a tremendous asset to this site, and to the average joe like me. Thank you.

 

[Lethal1ty17]

what form does the calcium come in, big block?

 

[MolaKule]

Calcium comes with the basic additive package, in the form of the detergent:

Quote:
Basic additive package - Liquid - 80 to 200 - May contain the detergent, anti-wear, anti-rust, friction modifier such as moly, ZDDP anti-oxidant/anti-wear, metal deactivators.


From here, you'll see most of the additives used today:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/additives-xii-multifunctional-additives.41173/

Quote:
Detergents (Surface Protective Additive): metallo-organic compounds of sodium, calcium, magnesium, boron phenolates, phosphates and sulfonates such as alkylbenzene sulfonic acids, alkylphenol sulfides, alkylsalacyclic acids; Lift deposits from surfaces to keep them suspended.


I am not aware of any modern additives that comes in blocks.

Now I have visited one additive manf. that used blocks of various chemicals or basic elements that were further processed with oil carriers to make the liquid additive packages. Maybe that's where this "block" myth originated.

 

[LargeCarManX2]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Calcium comes with the basic additive package, in the form of the detergent:

Quote:
Basic additive package - Liquid - 80 to 200 - May contain the detergent, anti-wear, anti-rust, friction modifier such as moly, ZDDP anti-oxidant/anti-wear, metal deactivators.


From here, you'll see most of the additives used today:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/additives-xii-multifunctional-additives.41173/

Quote:
Detergents (Surface Protective Additive): metallo-organic compounds of sodium, calcium, magnesium, boron phenolates, phosphates and sulfonates such as alkylbenzene sulfonic acids, alkylphenol sulfides, alkylsalacyclic acids; Lift deposits from surfaces to keep them suspended.


I am not aware of any modern additives that comes in blocks.

Now I have visited one additive manf. that used blocks of various chemicals or basic elements that were further processed with oil carriers to make the liquid additive packages. Maybe that's where this "block" myth originated.


The VI block that I saw added to the oil blending process....remember I just saw the VI block added...was lets say 2 foot wide by 3 feet long by 6 inches thick.

 

[Pablo]

Somewhere on the web there are pictures of these clearish/yellowish blocks. It may be ancient technology, but it's not a myth.

 

[MolaKule]

"are these additives in a super fine powder form sitting in a tub in the corner of the SOPUS/BP/XOM warehouse like finely ground powdered sugar? How are they made and refined?

Just curious. I read about additives all the time but never where they really come from or how they themselves are processed."

Quote:
Now I have visited one additive manf. that used blocks of various chemicals or basic elements that were further processed with oil carriers to make the liquid additive packages. Maybe that's where this "block" myth originated.



I think I answered the question posed.

To clarify, when I said block "myth" I was referring to the fact that the blending of modern-day additives with base oils is accomplished through liquid components, not blocks of solids.

Yes, you can still buy bags or blocks of polyisobutylenes, copolymers, sulfur, and other basic chemicals/components from the specialty chemical companies.

Companies such as Lubrizol for example, might take these blocks of basic chemicals or chemical compounds and feed them into hoppers and shredders and then mix them in the correct proportion with oil carriers. The finished additive(s) are then shipped to the blender in a liquid form, because a liquid form is more convienient for computerized blending.

And of course, you have to have specialized machinery and safeguards for processing these pallets of materials, which is a big capital investment. Infineum, Afton, Lubrizol, Chevron Oronite, etc. all have this machinery.

 

[jaj]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
...when I said block "myth" I was referring to the fact that the blending of modern-day additives with base oils is accomplished through liquid components, not blocks of solids.


I think I remember a post from Bruce381 that said he got some of his additives in solid form and had to grind them up or melt them. It's vague though - I'm probably mis-remembering.

 

[MolaKule]

I seem to remember him saying the same thing, but never knew why, nor ever found out exactly what he did. I think he did blending where he worked.

In the distant past, I had a requirement for a component that only came in the form of rubbery pellets about the size of your thumb and those pellets were packed in large square bags about 28" square. It looked like a big bag of marbles, except these marbles were rubbery and stuck together.

In order to prepare it for the formulated product, I had to drop the pellets in a solvent. In the art, this is called, "making an intermediate."

After I had this stuff in liquid form, I then mixed that solution with other components.

Now, this stuff comes in the form of a crystal clear liquid of about 1800 cSt.

Quote:
you have to tell all the additives to get along and play nice together!


This is the R&D phase of formulation. This where you research and find out what works and
then you do ASTM testing and chemical analysis.

The formulator-chemist or chemist-formulator has to do the upfront research before it can be blended. In the R&D phase, many chemical equations are solved on a computer.

The cost of R&D becomes part of the total cost of the final product, and it isn't cheap.