What criteria do you use when selecting a motor oil?

[RBT]

In this conversation, however, it’s you who is being hostile. He didn’t say anything against those people, but you presume he did.

And then you proceed to criticize him. You are the one presenting the ad hominem attack. Let’s go back to the subject, though shall we?

My brother-in-law is a powertrain engineer, just retired from General Motors. He worked at several companies, including Ford, Borg Warner, Chrysler, and GM.

There’s no doubt that engineers are intelligent people and that they work hard at their jobs. At least for the most part.

But what the engineer decides, and what gets written in the owners manual are two very different things. His frustration over the years often reflected that.

The engineer specifies something and then for other, broader, reasons, something else gets used or a different specification gets written into the manual.

Or, there’s an ideal solution for a particular problem, but he gets told you can’t have that solution, you have to use this particular product because we are going to use that product in our cars, period.

So, while I accept your defense of the engineering profession, the result that goes in the owners manual is not what you claim.

What I don’t accept, under any circumstances, is your rant against a fellow member on this forum. And if we see more of that, this thread will be closed.

There are no rants here but there is a history. I will leave it there.

 

[Astro14]

I read the owner’s manual and use what is specified. Generally if I am buying the oil I will use the highest HTHS within the viscosity indicated in the manual. If it is a car that is serviced outside the dealer network I will ask them what they use to make sure it meets what is specified/recommended. So for example my son's Golf has a prominent sticker on the radiator support - "use only VW 508.00 oil" so that's what I do. My Ram requires oil meeting Chrysler's MS6395 (pretty clear in the manual) standard so I check the oil used and make sure it says it meets that standard. My 1994 BMW with the M60 V8 came with a detailed oil viscosity chart in the manual. Factory fill was 15w40 in the mid-1990s and now that viscosity is difficult to find in a gasoline engine oil so I use a 15w50 (which is clearly within the oil viscosity chart in the book (as is 20w50; the lower viscosity oils are only OK, according to the chart, with very low air temperatures). That engine now has about 200k and runs quietly and smooth, uses no oil. Using this approach, with a variety of oils (per the manuals) from “thick” to “thin” depending on what the manual calls for, and keeping it full (some cars do use a little oil and that's normal) and changing it at a conservative interval, I have never had a lubrication related failure in a car or truck. It’s everything else that goes. People like to complicate things.

OK, well, people like to overcomplicate things, for sure, but sometimes life is complex.

Sometimes, something as simple as choosing an oil can be complicated. That’s how I ended up on this forum.

So, first let’s start with your BMWs chart. Very reminiscent of the Mercedes chart from my 1980s vintage Mercedes, or my lubrication chart from 1932 for my antique car.

But the air temperature is simply a proxy for the anticipated oil temperature during those environmental conditions. A better chart would have the anticipated oil temperature range, and recommended viscosity based on oil temperature.

I had an oil temperature gauge in my 1985 Volvo turbo wagon. (Still miss that car, by the way). Was really interesting. You could tell that the thermostat was fully open at 85C even in the winter time the oil typically reached around 80 C given a long enough gentle drive. But when I was driving up to the ski area, in the winter, and my foot was in it, and heat was being generated in the Turbo charger, occasionally I would see 90-95 C so while outside air temperature was a good guess, in this case, even though it was 20 F outside, the oil temperature was hotter than it was driving around town in the spring in the fall.

Towing a trailer in the summertime in the heat, the worst case scenario of course, I saw as high as 105-110. Now this was the pan temperature and the temperature of the oil as it came back from the cooler. And I am willing to bet that the actual temperature of that oil leaving the Turbo charger itself was considerably higher.

But Volvo recommendation for the car was simply “5W-30”. That’s it, no accounting for the temperature, no idea why Volvo did that because I never did talk to an engineer, but clearly given the variation in the oil temperature I should’ve been running a 40 weight in the summer. And perhaps a 40 weight in the winter when I plan to get on it and the 5W-30 was perfect for around town driving in the spring and fall.

Like most people, I started by following the owners manual, I didn’t know a lot about oil,

But the owners manual let me down. The turbo blew up on the way to the hospital for the birth of my youngest. It was winter time. And that 5W-30 should’ve been more than adequate. Maybe I was driving too fast. Maybe this turbo had suffered from having too thin an oil previously. But with less than 100,000 miles on it, it let go. The car lost power and created a smoke screen that a World War II destroyer would’ve been proud of.

Clearly, that 5W-30 let me down and in discussing it with the turbo shop that rebuilt it, he’s the one that said absolutely given the temperatures that I saw on the dashboard, I should be running a 40.

So, allow me to add that since I’ve learned a little bit about turbo chargers, and oil, that my turbo Volvo’s have gone over 300,000 miles on the original turbo. I didn’t precisely follow the owners manual specifications, in fact, I did better.

I’ll save that for another post. But the difference is following the owners manual, or choosing better. I lost the one turbo in fewer than 100,000 miles, but by optimizing my oil selection for the use case, I’ve got turbos with over 300,000 miles.

 

[RBT]

In this conversation, however, it’s you who is being hostile. He didn’t say anything against those people, but you presume he did.

And then you proceed to criticize him. You are the one presenting the ad hominem attack. Let’s go back to the subject, though shall we?

My brother-in-law is a powertrain engineer, just retired from General Motors. He worked at several companies, including Ford, Borg Warner, Chrysler, and GM.

There’s no doubt that engineers are intelligent people and that they work hard at their jobs. At least for the most part.

But what the engineer decides, and what gets written in the owners manual are two very different things. His frustration over the years often reflected that.

The engineer specifies something and then for other, broader, reasons, something else gets used or a different specification gets written into the manual.

Or, there’s an ideal solution for a particular problem, but he gets told you can’t have that solution, you have to use this particular product because we are going to use that product in our cars, period.

So, while I accept your defense of the engineering profession, the result that goes in the owners manual is not what you claim.

What I don’t accept, under any circumstances, is your rant against a fellow member on this forum. And if we see more of that, this thread will be closed.

As to substance, every business, certainly any business of size, operates within a regulatory environment. It does not equate to the outcomes being insufficient, although certainly there are compromises made. The question is whether those compromises materially and adversely impact the advice given or the ultimate product. Data on that would be helpful and one interesting data point is that the average age of automobiles today is older today than it has been in prior years:

https://www.bts.gov/content/average-age-automobiles-and-trucks-operation-united-states

Given that engines are the core operating component of cars, and that low viscosity oils have been common for several decades, this undermines the argument that the advice in owners manuals to use low viscosity oil will materially and adversely impact vehicle longevity, and thus belies claims that the manual advice is seriously compromised.

Now there are situations where going outside of spec is appropriate and prudent (eg heavy towing, racing, other severe use) but for the average person, the advice to start with the manual and go from there is sensible advice.

 

[Astro14]

There are no rants here but there is a history. I will leave it there.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

 

[RBT]

OK, well, people like to overcomplicate things, for sure, but sometimes life is complex.

Sometimes, something as simple as choosing an oil can be complicated. That’s how I ended up on this forum.

So, first let’s start with your BMWs chart. Very reminiscent of the Mercedes chart from my 1980s vintage Mercedes, or my lubrication chart from 1932 for my antique car.

But the air temperature is simply a proxy for the anticipated oil temperature during those environmental conditions. A better chart would have the anticipated oil temperature range, and recommended viscosity based on oil temperature.

I had an oil temperature gauge in my 1985 Volvo turbo wagon. (Still miss that car, by the way). Was really interesting. You could tell that the thermostat was fully open at 85C even in the winter time the oil typically reached around 80 C given a long enough gentle drive. But when I was driving up to the ski area, in the winter, and my foot was in it, and heat was being generated in the Turbo charger, occasionally I would see 90-95 C so while outside air temperature was a good guess, in this case, even though it was 20 F outside, the oil temperature was hotter than it was driving around town in the spring in the fall.

Towing a trailer in the summertime in the heat, the worst case scenario of course, I saw as high as 105-110. Now this was the pan temperature and the temperature of the oil as it came back from the cooler. And I am willing to bet that the actual temperature of that oil leaving the Turbo charger itself was considerably higher.

But Volvo recommendation for the car was simply “5W-30”. That’s it, no accounting for the temperature, no idea why Volvo did that because I never did talk to an engineer, but clearly given the variation in the oil temperature I should’ve been running a 40 weight in the summer. And perhaps a 40 weight in the winter when I plan to get on it and the 5W-30 was perfect for around town driving in the spring and fall.

Like most people, I started by following the owners manual, I didn’t know a lot about oil,

But the owners manual let me down. The turbo blew up on the way to the hospital for the birth of my youngest. It was winter time. And that 5W-30 should’ve been more than adequate. Maybe I was driving too fast. Maybe this turbo had suffered from having too thin an oil previously. But with less than 100,000 miles on it, it let go. The car lost power and created a smoke screen that a World War II destroyer would’ve been proud of.

Clearly, that 5W-30 let me down and in discussing it with the turbo shop that rebuilt it, he’s the one that said absolutely given the temperatures that I saw on the dashboard, I should be running a 40.

So, allow me to add that since I’ve learned a little bit about turbo chargers, and oil, that my turbo Volvo’s have gone over 300,000 miles on the original turbo. I didn’t precisely follow the owners manual specifications, in fact, I did better.

I’ll save that for another post. But the difference is following the owners manual, or choosing better. I lost the one turbo in fewer than 100,000 miles, but by optimizing my oil selection for the use case, I’ve got turbos with over 300,000 miles.

Understood but you are talking about cars out of warranty. The biggest contention with the other poster was not that I advocated that he was wrong but that as a practical matter, if you are under warranty follow the book because the service writer behind the counter doesn’t care - if there are after market parts on the car it can lead to what I call the weasel factor. When you are out of warranty then by all means if you want to educate yourself and do better, go ahead.

 

[mojoe]

What I wrote is exactly true.

I always read your responses, and almost always heed your advice because I appreciate your obvious knowledge. How you share that vast knowledge, no matter how true it may be, is the issue here. You have a blind spot in that regard. Example:

"A valid course of action if you don’t wish to look into it further or don’t understand why something may be better."

That is unnecessarily rude and condescending, no matter how true it may be. It's a backhanded compliment. It's a dig disguised as helpful advice in the name of truth.

I, and many others I'm sure, value your knowledge, but wish you would drop the attitude.

 

[mojoe]

In this conversation, however, it’s you who is being hostile. He didn’t say anything against those people, but you presume he did.

And then you proceed to criticize him. You are the one presenting the ad hominem attack. Let’s go back to the subject, though shall we?

My brother-in-law is a powertrain engineer, just retired from General Motors. He worked at several companies, including Ford, Borg Warner, Chrysler, and GM.

There’s no doubt that engineers are intelligent people and that they work hard at their jobs. At least for the most part.

But what the engineer decides, and what gets written in the owners manual are two very different things. His frustration over the years often reflected that.

The engineer specifies something and then for other, broader, reasons, something else gets used or a different specification gets written into the manual.

Or, there’s an ideal solution for a particular problem, but he gets told you can’t have that solution, you have to use this particular product because we are going to use that product in our cars, period.

So, while I accept your defense of the engineering profession, the result that goes in the owners manual is not what you claim.

What I don’t accept, under any circumstances, is your rant against a fellow member on this forum. And if we see more of that, this thread will be closed.

K is consistently rude and condescending. Why is that allowed?

 

[Plumb Bob]

That is unnecessarily rude and condescending, no matter how true it may be.

That's just an opinion based on facts. Why dig into it deeper than needed?

 

[mojoe]

That's just an opinion based on facts. Why dig into it deeper than needed?

So being consistently rude and condescending is acceptable on this forum? I bet I wouldn't get a pass for that.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Had amazing results from Redline Cvt Non Slip Fluid and after being eligible and seeing the deals I could get, going back to Redline Oil was a no brainer. I like the 5w30, its shearing is minimal, thicker than some 40s and used it to some extent in every vehicle I have owned. With GDI and fuel dilution, this was too easy. Also using the Redline Si-1 fuel additive. I got a red car so that helped too.

 

[RBT]

RAM Owner's manual recommends MS6395.

Pretty clear.

 

[Plumb Bob]

So being consistently rude and condescending is acceptable on this forum? I bet I wouldn't get a pass for that.

Rudeness is not allowed on here.
The statement you quoted has none of it. Again, it is just a factual opinion.

There is nothing wrong with not understanding a process, or pointing it in an opinion -aren't we all born with zero knowledge?

Instead of looking for an excuse to get offended, some users might be better of trying to learn from those with knowledge to share, such as the above-mentioned one.

 

[Plumb Bob]

Relatedly what are the highest oil temps you have seen?

I was tempted to go to a 30 when I volunteered to transport some large draft horses (large even by draft horse size) and had to take a route that invovmed some good climbs. Trailer loaded was probably 8k, truck max less my personal largesse is 11k. I was pleasantly surprised to see oil temps never got above high 220s - touched 230 briefly and then came down. I think the factory oil cooler works pretty well.

If I were doing that regularly and the extended warranty were up I would likely go to a 30.

Have a good day.

I don’t tow and most of my driving is on an empty bed, save a few trips to the Home Depot. Highest I've seen is 226-228 F.

Your Hemi shares many of the hardware parts with the 6.4, and that one runs on 40 grade. It has been discussed on here many times.

@OVERKILL

 

[mojoe]

Rudeness is not allowed on here.
The statement you quoted has none of it. Again, it is just a factual opinion.

There is nothing wrong with not understanding a process, or pointing it in an opinion -aren't we all born with zero knowledge?

Instead of looking for an excuse to get offended, some users might be better of trying to learn from those with knowledge to share, such as the above-mentioned one.

I disagree. A statement can be truthful and rude and condescending at the same time. If you don't see that here, then you have the same blind spot:

"A valid course of action if you don’t wish to look into it further or don’t understand why something may be better."

I admit it's subtle, but it's undeniable. Me looking for an excuse to be offended is a mischaracterization of what is happening here. I'm just pointing out demonstrably rude and condescending behavior. If that's wrong, then I'm wrong.

 

[Volvo_Expert_Tech]

But Volvo recommendation for the car was simply “5W-30”. That’s it, no accounting for the temperature, no idea why Volvo did that because I never did talk to an engineer, but clearly given the variation in the oil temperature I should’ve been running a 40 weight in the summer. And perhaps a 40 weight in the winter when I plan to get on it and the 5W-30 was perfect for around town driving in the spring and fall.

Volvo stopped using 5w30 in the 2015.5 models and up and switched to 0w20. We were installing stickers under the hood and stapling pamphlets to the owners manual to notify customers.

When I last spoke with a Swedish engineer (2017), they told me that the NA market was supposed to use 0w20 like the rest of the world was using but they took awhile to implement it due to "American stubbornism of using higher viscosity". He blamed the oil consumption issues (on the 3.2 and 3.0 models) on the thicker oil sticking on the cylinder walls and getting past the cylinder rings. Low and behold, the four cylinder VEP engines from 2015.5 and up with low tension rings that have used 0w20 their entire life are still consuming oil.


Now that I will never own a Chinese Volvo and became a VAG family, I only use oils that carry the VW504, and most recently, the VW511 certifications.

 

[RBT]

I don’t tow and most of my driving is on an empty bed, save a few trips to the Home Depot. Highest I've seen is 226-228 F.

Your Hemi shares many of the hardware parts with the 6.4, and that one runs on 40 grade. It has been discussed on here many times.

@OVERKILL

That is high for no load. Do you have an oil cooler?

I fat fingered the other post and it was easier to delete but highest I have seen is 230, just touching it, with 8k in tow on hilly terrain. Mostly 220s on those trips otherwise. Unloaded with just passengers, 205-210 in 90 plus degree heat.

I am not trying to convince you to stop doing what you are doing, but my last hemi lasted 300k. Rust on the doors and spring perches killed it. Engine was fine.

 

[Plumb Bob]

That is high for no load. Do you have an oil cooler?

I fat fingered the other post and it was easier to delete but highest I have seen is 230, just touching it, with 8k in tow on hilly terrain. Mostly 220s on those trips otherwise. Unloaded with just passengers, 205-210 in 90 plus degree heat.

I am not trying to convince you to stop doing what you are doing, but my last hemi lasted 300k. Rust on the doors and spring perches killed it. Engine was fine.

Max oil temperature has not considerably change based on the grade I use: 20, 30, or 40. With a higher grade, the oil gets up to temp faster, but the max is the same.

I do have a cooler.