Ford dealership here in Fairbanks has a sign posted on the counter at the Fast Lube shop. 5w30 used in gasoline engines, 10w30 in diesel engines. They use Motorcraft oil.
what 5w20 oil to use?
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the owner's manual for my 2002 Honda Civic SiR recommends using 5w-20, but says we can use 5w-30 if needed, and goes on to recommend switching back to 5w-20 at the next oil change after using 5w-30. It doesn't mention anything related to warranty coverage, seems more related to fuel consumption by the way they word it in our manual. Needless to say I am running 5w-30.
Patman
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quote:Show me one engine failure caused by 5w20. Show me one bad oil analysis with 5w20. I'm waiting. [ December 22, 2002, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]
Originally posted by metroplex: 5W-20 is used for CAFE/EPA not engine longevity. I don't understand why no one frigging understands this.
Patman, let's turn that around and show me an engine that's gone 250,000+ on 5w20. There are many cases of engines lasting this long with good maintainence of oil using dino or synthetic on 30 or 40 weights.
I don't doubt 5w20 provides adequate protection for the average user, but people on this board aren't average. And do you doubt the move to 5w20 is all about gas mileage and CAFE?
It is all about gas mileage. 5w-20 hasn't been out long enough to reach 250K miles. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
It is interesting to question the durability of a 20wt. oil. It might be wise to change a 20wt. around 3k miles, even with a synthetic to be on the safe side until the data comes in. When the Mobil 1 0w-20 comes out, I'll do an analysis on my wifes Focus. Right now I put a 5w-30 tri-synthetic M1 in. This is what I will stick with but for analysis purposes, I'll throw the 20wt. in over the spring months to see what it shows. My friend with the Mustang, who is one of these guys who goes with what the manufacturer says at all times (can't blame him to a certain degree) is waiting for the M1 0w-20. But I think there is no doubt it is all about gas mileage.
[ December 22, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
It is interesting to question the durability of a 20wt. oil. It might be wise to change a 20wt. around 3k miles, even with a synthetic to be on the safe side until the data comes in. When the Mobil 1 0w-20 comes out, I'll do an analysis on my wifes Focus. Right now I put a 5w-30 tri-synthetic M1 in. This is what I will stick with but for analysis purposes, I'll throw the 20wt. in over the spring months to see what it shows. My friend with the Mustang, who is one of these guys who goes with what the manufacturer says at all times (can't blame him to a certain degree) is waiting for the M1 0w-20. But I think there is no doubt it is all about gas mileage.
[ December 22, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Here's a novel idea ...does anyone have actual DATA that shows 5w-20 oils are resulting in significantly more wear than 5w-30 grades in a controlled test or tests? I didn't think so ... ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
You should not make decisions based on fear and superstition in the absence of data. I see NO problem at all with 5w-20 or even 0w-20 oils that use high quality basestocks, either Group III petroleum derived or PAO based. These are not going to be products made from Group I, solvent refined basestocks.
I expect GM and Damlier/Chrysler to switch to 5w-20's within the next few years - certainly by the time the GF-4 spec comes out.
TooSlick
You should not make decisions based on fear and superstition in the absence of data. I see NO problem at all with 5w-20 or even 0w-20 oils that use high quality basestocks, either Group III petroleum derived or PAO based. These are not going to be products made from Group I, solvent refined basestocks.
I expect GM and Damlier/Chrysler to switch to 5w-20's within the next few years - certainly by the time the GF-4 spec comes out.
TooSlickThese Companies certainly might require use of 20 wts in the future,,I am betting that motor clearances will be Enginnered towards this at the same time. For now,some motors are not there yet,,,can you say transitional period ?
For now there is simply no comparison between the Dino 20's and the Redline,Synergyn 20's. Take a 1978 Ford Truck with a 460 motor and 100+k miles,hook that trailer to it and take off like usual except with current OTC offerings,,see what happens. My thinking is it will not be a good trip,,wreckers ride rough and cost per mile adds up Or it just might burn a bunch of oil ?
[ December 23, 2002, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Or it just might burn a bunch of oil ?
[ December 23, 2002, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]quote:Anyone know for sure???
Originally posted by Mike: Can they determine the original viscosity and oil brand from an oil analysis?
quote:Mike, the issue isn't them proving the oil you use was not API certified, you have to produce reciepts of oil you purchased for the vehicle, and then they will know without any analysis whether or not the oil is API certified, and whether the proper viscosity was used. The burden of proof is upon you that the vehicle was serviced properly. Then the burden of proof switches to them to prove that the failure was caused by something you did.
Originally posted by Mike: TooSlick You say you can tell but I want to know if it can be done with certainty? Not just from experience. All this hype about non-api oils voiding warranties makes we want to know if they can prove it. I inquired of the analysis people but they have not or will not respond.
Mike,
I've seen a number of API licensed formulations that had phosphorus levels > 1000 ppm, so I don't think oil analysis could be used to show you didn't use a licensed formulation.
Oil analysis can be used to show the oil is still good for continued use and not the source of your problem.
Unless you were to do something stupid like use a gas engine oil in a HD diesel, you simply aren't going to have oil related issues anyway, so it's a moot point. Except for the debacle with the Mobil 1, aviation synthetic called AV1, I've never heard of oil causing engine failures, provided it was not run longer than it was chemically designed for.
TS
Honda is not up against any CAFE numbers. Although they are known for high mileage vehicles, IMO they will not PI$$ away their well deserved reputation of building quality dependable cars for a half mile per gallon or so. Get real.
Todays technology allows 5W-20 to be used with complete confidence. Didn't Ford extend the warranty on the new Focus to 100,000 miles? It uses 5W-20. Yeah....must be bad oil...... LOL
BTW I use Synergyn 0W-20 in 3 diferent Ford autobobiles.
quote:Honda is also known for building high mpg cars and they don't want to lose that reputation either. So their motives aren't as simple as you make it sound. Most people are happy with an engine lasting 150,000 miles, and 5w20 will do that job. I'm interested in how long an engine CAN last. I read an article where Ford was happy with the engine lasting until 150k with 5w20 so that was good enough for them . Car companines are shooting for a target that's acceptable by the market, not for a target that is the BEST. Just my $.02
Originally posted by tenderloin: Honda is not up against any CAFE numbers. Although they are known for high mileage vehicles, IMO they will not PI$$ away their well deserved reputation of building quality dependable cars for a half mile per gallon or so. Get real.
quote:I drive a 1999 Surburban K2500 at work for the last 4 yrs. Had the oil changed every 5000 miles. Nowhere on the receipts did it say anything about the oil being API certifed, so how can that have any affect. Everyone here appears to be changing thier own oils, how are they proving it API. I see Amsoil selling in Walmarts, parts stores, ATV stores, service stations, GM Dealers etc. I was told some time ago by a GMC service manager that I needed to prove maintanence is a log of the date, miles and what was serviced.
Mike, the issue isn't them proving the oil you use was not API certified, you have to produce reciepts of oil you purchased for the vehicle, and then they will know without any analysis whether or not the oil is API certified, and whether the proper viscosity was used. The burden of proof is upon you that the vehicle was serviced properly. Then the burden of proof switches to them to prove that the failure was caused by something you did.
quote:If you had it changed at a dealer or reputable business then the warrantee company isn't going to raise an issue of oil grades most likely. This is mostly an issue with those that do it themselves. Everyone concerned about warrantee coverage should keep a receipt and a log of the work they did in my opinion. In reality, I doubt any failures will be attributed to the oil if changed within the recommended service interval. For those running extended drains, I'm sure that will raise some questions with the warrantee company if there's an engine failure. That's not to say they won't cover it if you have good records and oil analysis to back you up. [ December 23, 2002, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Giles ]
Originally posted by Mike: [QUOTE]I drive a 1999 Surburban K2500 at work for the last 4 yrs. Had the oil changed every 5000 miles. Nowhere on the receipts did it say anything about the oil being API certifed, so how can that have any affect. Everyone here appears to be changing thier own oils, how are they proving it API. I see Amsoil selling in Walmarts, parts stores, ATV stores, service stations, GM Dealers etc. I was told some time ago by a GMC service manager that I needed to prove maintanence is a log of the date, miles and what was serviced.
quote:Thanks TooSlick, Finally, someone offers a rational explanation of why 5w20’s work OK. Beef up the oil pump. As TS suggests, that’s not a fix-all, the add pack needs to be up to the challenge.
Originally posted by TooSlick: If you simply increase the output of the oil pump, you can get excellent oil pressure even with a 5w-20 oil under heavy loads. So main bearing wear isn't really an issue ... The challenge is making a 0w-20/5w-20 oil that provides protection for the valvetrain, where you are operating under a "mixed mode" or boundary lube kind of situation. How you do this while decreasing the # of ZDDP will be interesting to see? That's where esters and/or MoDTC may come into play.
Mike,
I can easily tell you if it's Amsoil, Mobil 1, Delvac 1 or Redline, from looking at the level of additives, the viscosity @ 100C and the total base number, or TBN.
I can also tell which specific Amsoil or Mobil 1 product it is. I'd have to guess with Redline if they make more than one oil in that SAE grade.
TooSlick
quote:Metroplex, Let us all try and finally put this to rest. I have the service manuals for all Ford Models 95-2001 (95-2002 for the Trucks I think) and can look up the tolerance specifications. Each model year, I have to burn on CD, which I am in the process of doing. Sooooooo...what factory tolerance specs are you all interested to see? Regards, Oz
Originally posted by metroplex: 5W-20 is used for CAFE/EPA not engine longevity. I don't understand why no one frigging understands this. FACT: 2000 Mustang GT, 4.6L SOHC V8, WINDSOR PLANT ENGINE. Ford spec's 5W-30. 2001 Mustang GT, 4.6L SOHC V8, ROMEO PLANT ENGINE. Ford spec's 5W-20. Ok, so you say that the Romeo plant engine is built to tighter tolerances? 96-98 Mustang GT, 4.6L SOHC V8, ROMEO PLANT ENGINE. 99-00 Mustang GT, 4.6L SOHC V8, WINDSOR PLANT ENGINE Main differences: 96-98 GT had non-PI heads while 99-00 GTs had PI heads on a Windsor made block + rotating assemblies. I have spoken to Ford engineers re: this and they state THERE IS NO NEED TO USE 5W-20. Heck, there are no differences in the 00 and 01 GT engine that would call for THINNER oil!!!! Just use 5W-30 where it asks you to use 5W-20.
The theory that car manufacturers would sacrifice engine durability to get their CAFE numbers slightly lower doesn't hold water with me. It overlooks the simple fact that car manufacturing is a very competitive business. Which car manufacturer can afford to gain a poor reputation for reliability or durability? The manufacturers have tested the 20-weights and if they truly weren't up to the job they wouldn't recommend them.
If you simply increase the output of the oil pump, you can get excellent oil pressure even with a 5w-20 oil under heavy loads. So main bearing wear isn't really an issue ...
The challenge is making a 0w-20/5w-20 oil that provides protection for the valvetrain, where you are operating under a "mixed mode" or boundary lube kind of situation. How you do this while decreasing the # of ZDDP will be interesting to see?
That's where esters and/or MoDTC may come into play.
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