No tankless. Done it once and I'll never do it again. How ever long your tank heater lasted, a tankless will last somewhere between half and one third that time.
My go to plumber loves tankless, says they make him a lot of money.
Water heater advice
- Thread starter OVERKILL
- Start date
My go to plumber loves tankless, says they make him a lot of money.
I bought our regular gas water heater for $85 and I think I ended up spending a little bit over $200 over 20 years ago.
It still operates perfectly fine. I would love to! Frankly, just get another one like it and ignore all this high-tech stuff that I won't ever miss.
It still operates perfectly fine. I would love to! Frankly, just get another one like it and ignore all this high-tech stuff that I won't ever miss.
My suggestion would be based on a few things, mostly how often you use hot water there, how many concurrent use case do you need hot water, and your electricity vs gas rate. This assumes you do not have any emotional attachment to one fuel type vs another.
You are in Canada, so you likely won't use much air conditioning year round. Your heat source for the heat pump water heating would be from your other heat source in the house either geothermal, regular heat pump (worst case backup heating in the winter below freezing), natural gas, etc. This makes heat pump a not that great choice in the winter IMO. It would be perfect in Florida but probably not your location. For this I would rule out electric anything.
You said it is one bath, and you likely can recover fast enough regardless of tank vs tankless. I assume that if you are concern about recovery you can use a larger tank than a tankless. I have a 50 gal in my home and only shower 1 person at a time, and we never run out of hot water.
So assume you have enough space for a large tank, the only benefit of tankless vs tank is the idle heat loss cost. In my garage my loss is about 0.5 therm a day measured during vacation time in summer and winter, and let's say your new one will also last 15 years then you can do that math again to see how much it cost. Also don't forget in the winter this 0.5 therm heat loss is likely dissipated into the surrounding and warming up your house anyways, so not all is lost.
IMO with investment opportunity cost this will not be 3x like tankless cost (not including concern of expanding flue and gas pipe, etc. I would pick a larger tank than a tankless unless I'm going heat pump or I have other issue with large tank.
If it is a place I don't live in and sit idle most of the year, then maybe a resistive electric water heater. You need to use it enough to justify tankless but not using it too much (or tankless would be about the same as tank), and you need to check heat pump water heater's true cost in the winter by factoring in your home heating cost as well.
You are in Canada, so you likely won't use much air conditioning year round. Your heat source for the heat pump water heating would be from your other heat source in the house either geothermal, regular heat pump (worst case backup heating in the winter below freezing), natural gas, etc. This makes heat pump a not that great choice in the winter IMO. It would be perfect in Florida but probably not your location. For this I would rule out electric anything.
You said it is one bath, and you likely can recover fast enough regardless of tank vs tankless. I assume that if you are concern about recovery you can use a larger tank than a tankless. I have a 50 gal in my home and only shower 1 person at a time, and we never run out of hot water.
So assume you have enough space for a large tank, the only benefit of tankless vs tank is the idle heat loss cost. In my garage my loss is about 0.5 therm a day measured during vacation time in summer and winter, and let's say your new one will also last 15 years then you can do that math again to see how much it cost. Also don't forget in the winter this 0.5 therm heat loss is likely dissipated into the surrounding and warming up your house anyways, so not all is lost.
IMO with investment opportunity cost this will not be 3x like tankless cost (not including concern of expanding flue and gas pipe, etc. I would pick a larger tank than a tankless unless I'm going heat pump or I have other issue with large tank.
If it is a place I don't live in and sit idle most of the year, then maybe a resistive electric water heater. You need to use it enough to justify tankless but not using it too much (or tankless would be about the same as tank), and you need to check heat pump water heater's true cost in the winter by factoring in your home heating cost as well.
IMO, find a local reputable plumber and have them install a fast recovery natural gas A.O. Smith water heater. Make sure it is made in USA, whatever brand or kind you buy. Buy the longest warranty, keep all the paperwork and be sure to register your new water heater online with the mfg. Don't let the installer register it for you, do it yourself. This is my advice.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Thanks for all the input so far, so there's no consensus here yet, LMAO!
On the question about the water quality, it's pretty hard, which I suspect is what is crusting up the inside of the current unit. It's leaking from where the drain spigot connects to the tank and I'm afraid to touch it, lest it completely lets go. The tank before this one "let go" and there was a fun water feature in my basement.
On the placement, regarding a hybrid unit, yes, it's in the basement. House is hybrid heated with a heat pump and gas (heat pump is cooling the house as I write this).
Both gas and the electricity are reasonably cheap. Going electric here would not get me away from gas, since I still rely on it for heating when it's below -5C. Electric heaters are considerably less expensive however.
I did look at the electric tankless ones, but they requires 3x 50A breakers and 300A service
The guy that did the assessment, they sell Woods, which are Canadian units. The ones they install for Home Depot are Rheem.
On the question about the water quality, it's pretty hard, which I suspect is what is crusting up the inside of the current unit. It's leaking from where the drain spigot connects to the tank and I'm afraid to touch it, lest it completely lets go. The tank before this one "let go" and there was a fun water feature in my basement.
On the placement, regarding a hybrid unit, yes, it's in the basement. House is hybrid heated with a heat pump and gas (heat pump is cooling the house as I write this).
Both gas and the electricity are reasonably cheap. Going electric here would not get me away from gas, since I still rely on it for heating when it's below -5C. Electric heaters are considerably less expensive however.
I did look at the electric tankless ones, but they requires 3x 50A breakers and 300A service
The guy that did the assessment, they sell Woods, which are Canadian units. The ones they install for Home Depot are Rheem.
Much of my life we had 50 gallon gas water heaters.
Our recent last home of 16 years the same.
At around the 12 year mark, we replaced it with a new gas hot water unit. Cost at the time for the new unit was almost exactly $1000 complete and installed.
Our current new build home of two years came with a tankless Rinnai unit. Many (maybe the majority ) new homes in this area have tankless units but some builders still use traditional 50 gallon tank and 50 gallon hybrid.
As far as our personal experience, both units delivered the same amount of hot water. We never ran out with the 50 gallon gas unit, even when the kids lived with us.
Now in this new home, just my wife and I of course the tankless unit the same.
My personal opinion, if all things are equal, I would go for a 50 gallon tank. It’s just so simple with little to break down and as you noticed much lower cost. Even the US Department of energy is on the fence over which one is more efficient in cost savings than take into account price and also serviceability as the tankless unit is going to need more service, possibly much more depending on how hard your water is, or chemical added from a public water supply that might coat the coils, necessitating, yearly flushing/cleaning.
It just seems to me, again if all things are equal and you have the room why complicate something as simple as heating water.
Now for yet in another twist of this insanely long post, our current Rinnai tankless
unit keeping in mind the house is only two years old is a stellar performer. I have absolutely no complaints about it. Our public water supply is reverse osmosis water so it has zero minerals in it and I would think I probably will not have to clean the coils for approximately five years if even then.
There are people in the community who complain after 8 to 10 years. Their tankless system gave up on them when they do they complain about insanely high cost of replacement.
I don’t know these people so a certain percentage of the population does get taken advantage of
Our recent last home of 16 years the same.
At around the 12 year mark, we replaced it with a new gas hot water unit. Cost at the time for the new unit was almost exactly $1000 complete and installed.
Our current new build home of two years came with a tankless Rinnai unit. Many (maybe the majority ) new homes in this area have tankless units but some builders still use traditional 50 gallon tank and 50 gallon hybrid.
As far as our personal experience, both units delivered the same amount of hot water. We never ran out with the 50 gallon gas unit, even when the kids lived with us.
Now in this new home, just my wife and I of course the tankless unit the same.
My personal opinion, if all things are equal, I would go for a 50 gallon tank. It’s just so simple with little to break down and as you noticed much lower cost. Even the US Department of energy is on the fence over which one is more efficient in cost savings than take into account price and also serviceability as the tankless unit is going to need more service, possibly much more depending on how hard your water is, or chemical added from a public water supply that might coat the coils, necessitating, yearly flushing/cleaning.
It just seems to me, again if all things are equal and you have the room why complicate something as simple as heating water.
Now for yet in another twist of this insanely long post, our current Rinnai tankless
unit keeping in mind the house is only two years old is a stellar performer. I have absolutely no complaints about it. Our public water supply is reverse osmosis water so it has zero minerals in it and I would think I probably will not have to clean the coils for approximately five years if even then.
There are people in the community who complain after 8 to 10 years. Their tankless system gave up on them when they do they complain about insanely high cost of replacement.
I don’t know these people so a certain percentage of the population does get taken advantage of
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I do run a dehumidifier, yes.
Just make so to perform the yearly maintenance on tankless yourself or paying someone.
Personally I prefer hybrid.
Personally I prefer hybrid.
The more I read about tankless the bigger a nightmare they seemed for anyone with less than perfect water… and my water has enough iron in it to refine into steel. Plus I refuse to have a water heater controlled by a computer.
After a lot of research, my son put in an electric tankless water heater in his first home. He never recognized any real savings in energy. I believe the newer ones are a little better at energy savings, but at the cost of response time.
While it seems counterintuitive, every study I have read suggests that it is almost as energy efficient to store hot water, in a traditional tank style water heater, as it is to heat is instantly. The return on investment is very long, almost to the life span of the tankless unit, especially if you consider the time value of money, for the extra initial purchase cost.
Have you asked anyone in your area with a tankless water heater, how frequently they have to do the maintenance flush on one with the hard water that you have? Or did the installer have any idea?
The only advantage I see is gaining the space that a tank heater takes.
While it seems counterintuitive, every study I have read suggests that it is almost as energy efficient to store hot water, in a traditional tank style water heater, as it is to heat is instantly. The return on investment is very long, almost to the life span of the tankless unit, especially if you consider the time value of money, for the extra initial purchase cost.
Have you asked anyone in your area with a tankless water heater, how frequently they have to do the maintenance flush on one with the hard water that you have? Or did the installer have any idea?
The only advantage I see is gaining the space that a tank heater takes.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Space really isn't an issue, it's in the furnace room with the furnace and central vac. This is the old coal room for the house back when it was coal heated with the "octopus".
I bought this Hybrid Heat Pump Water Heater 7 years ago at Home Depot when I originally wanted a tankless unit. Paid for itself in about 4 years. Saves about $30usd/month average. Installed myself with copper pipe. Watched a LOT of you tube videos on how to install.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-P...-with-10-Year-Warranty-XE50T10H45U1/330317316
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-P...-with-10-Year-Warranty-XE50T10H45U1/330317316
Hybrid
How hard is the water in your area? And how often do you have to flush it?
I involuntarily sprayed my beer when I read your response! Thanks for the laugh.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
How did you get the gas hooked up? I would need to get a gas fitter involved to handle the gas disconnect/connect, at which point, it's almost the price of just having them install it.
I've done electric hot water heater replacements myself, such as at the cottage (ran all the wiring for it, red 240V), but gas isn't something I'm comfortable touching inside my house.
dnewton3
Staff member
Wait ... you expected consensus from folks who can't agree on Vis, additives, oil brand or anything else for that matter?
Dude, you should have known better ...
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