Water Cylinder Decarbonizing... Should I?
- Thread starter BlazerLT
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Small amounts work ..they just take longer. Legit water injected engines aren't carbon prone ..and they don't dose the engine with that much water at one time.
I'm still going to try a 50/50 iso/h2o mix to see if the process is any easier.
I'm still going to try a 50/50 iso/h2o mix to see if the process is any easier.
I like some of the things I'm reading here... good ideas. What about setting up a line running from the washer resevoir, with distilled water, through a basketball-inflation needle, and just driving the car normally until the water is gone?
Possible advantages: slow, controlled cleaning; less likelihood of large chunks breaking off. No unfiltered air entering engine through open vacuum line. Not time-limited to however long you can stand there racing the engine and squirting a spray-bottle. Seems like this would be similar to water-injected engines as used sometimes in racing - I've heard such engines stay remarkably clean in use.
Would this work? Would it be a good idea? You could do your normal driving for a day, check your resevoir, peek in a plug hole when done, and if necessary run some more.
- Glenn
Possible advantages: slow, controlled cleaning; less likelihood of large chunks breaking off. No unfiltered air entering engine through open vacuum line. Not time-limited to however long you can stand there racing the engine and squirting a spray-bottle. Seems like this would be similar to water-injected engines as used sometimes in racing - I've heard such engines stay remarkably clean in use.
Would this work? Would it be a good idea? You could do your normal driving for a day, check your resevoir, peek in a plug hole when done, and if necessary run some more.
- Glenn
No, I and I think others are talking about cleaning. I was just thinking, instead of doing it in five minutes standing there squirting water with a bottle, maybe it would be better to set up a delivery system to do it automatically, and slowly, while you drive. You would have to have low enough flow to preserve your idle at high (idle) vacuum - that might be the difficulty.
- Glenn
- Glenn
First of all, you don't spray air into the intake if you want it done properly in a cleaning session.
What you use is the PCV line that connects to the intake and you allow the engine vacuum to suck water in through the pcv hose.
You will have to drive one heck of a lot of miles to clean your engine using a basketball fitting as the water source.
It is just so much easier to have the PCV line unhooked and giving the engine a good dose of water to really generate the steam required to get this method to work. You will have to hold the engine rpms at about 2000 and allow the engine to slowly suck in the water through the hose. To do this you just have the hose barely floating above the water level in the glass and the vacuum will suck in the water.
When it is sucking in the water slowly, you will have to mudulte the throttle to keep the engine speed up seeing the water will try to kill the engine.
Works great and in about 10-15 minutes you can have a treatment done instead of waiting 6-12 months plus the cost of a whole water injection system to do the same thing.
Here is a thread on what I did:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=283211
What you use is the PCV line that connects to the intake and you allow the engine vacuum to suck water in through the pcv hose.
You will have to drive one heck of a lot of miles to clean your engine using a basketball fitting as the water source.
It is just so much easier to have the PCV line unhooked and giving the engine a good dose of water to really generate the steam required to get this method to work. You will have to hold the engine rpms at about 2000 and allow the engine to slowly suck in the water through the hose. To do this you just have the hose barely floating above the water level in the glass and the vacuum will suck in the water.
When it is sucking in the water slowly, you will have to mudulte the throttle to keep the engine speed up seeing the water will try to kill the engine.
Works great and in about 10-15 minutes you can have a treatment done instead of waiting 6-12 months plus the cost of a whole water injection system to do the same thing.
Here is a thread on what I did:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=283211
Yes I'm familiar with that way of doing it, but with respect nothing you've brought up strikes me as a legitimate argument against the slower/automatic method I mentioned as a possibility. If it would work - and it seems like it might - it would cost a couple of bucks for some hose and fittings, and it would be easy and presumably gentle on the engine. I don't think it would take long. Maybe a day of normal driving, or a quick run on the freeway.
Keep in mind not all cars have a PCV system. Mine doesn't. The idea is to get water into the intake stream in appropriate quantities that you end up with a steam-cleaning effect in the combustion chamber. I suppose if there wasn't enough water it would all vaporize, and you'd get a charge-cooling effect but no steam-cleaning effect. So maybe it's a matter of fine-tuning to get it right. Maybe it won't work. I'm thinking about doing some experimentation with it.
- Glenn
- Glenn
Keep in mind not all cars have a PCV system. Mine doesn't. The idea is to get water into the intake stream in appropriate quantities that you end up with a steam-cleaning effect in the combustion chamber. I suppose if there wasn't enough water it would all vaporize, and you'd get a charge-cooling effect but no steam-cleaning effect. So maybe it's a matter of fine-tuning to get it right. Maybe it won't work. I'm thinking about doing some experimentation with it.
- Glenn
- Glenn
It is not just some hose and a clamp, you have to have a system where the water is metered and also shuts off when you shut the engine off. It is not as easy as you say it is. If it was, you would be hearing a lot more about it and see a lot of people actually using it. I know I would.
And for well formed carbon deposits, it will take more than what you are suggesting as the right time interval for your method. 12hrs worth of driving could do something if enough water is introduced, but not a casual romp around the town will net nothing.
Most if not all engine have a PCV system. What is your vehicle and engine?
But realistically, this thread is about the method that I am introducing and not a debate between a water injection system and carbon cleaning.
Water injection systems are used as a detonation suppression technique although they do have their cleaning capabilities.
My method is simple, effective, no cost and take maybe 10-20 minutes for a treatment and it does make a noticeable improvement in throttle response and overalll driveability.
And for well formed carbon deposits, it will take more than what you are suggesting as the right time interval for your method. 12hrs worth of driving could do something if enough water is introduced, but not a casual romp around the town will net nothing.
Most if not all engine have a PCV system. What is your vehicle and engine?
But realistically, this thread is about the method that I am introducing and not a debate between a water injection system and carbon cleaning.
Water injection systems are used as a detonation suppression technique although they do have their cleaning capabilities.
My method is simple, effective, no cost and take maybe 10-20 minutes for a treatment and it does make a noticeable improvement in throttle response and overalll driveability.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
You're right BLT ..but it's not for everyone. What if you have a metered orifice to one intake runner instead of a PCV line? Suppose you don't have a central TB on your intake plenumn ..or a horizontal tb?? It's won't always work for everyone.
For these vehicles the fog/spray method may be the only manner to do it. That's why fuel adds of chemical agents are so popular. They have to reach every cylinder.
For these vehicles the fog/spray method may be the only manner to do it. That's why fuel adds of chemical agents are so popular. They have to reach every cylinder.
With a basketball needle and a 1.5 liter bottle of water, at 2500-3K rpms I went through the whole bottle in about 4 minutes. No need to worry about modulating the throttle, because not enough was getting in to stall the engine. She was just revving along shooting steam out the back.
Blazer, have you tried a basketball needle to know that it doesn’t work? I feel safer using the basketball needle because the engine is much less likely to hydrolock when you are limiting the amount of water that can come in and not the engine. If it takes 2 minutes longer, so be it. Plug in the hose and take her on a trip, then you don’t have to worry about how long it takes
There is a lot of risk involved in sucking a non compressable, non-flammable liquid into an engine. In my opinion, most people I tell about it are worried about destroying the engine, and rightfully so.
Making something more idiot-proof allows more people to try, and not blow something up.
There was another thread where a guy hooked up his headlight washer fluid hose to a vacuum hose so he can hit a switch and clean the engine for 10 seconds. Kinda like NAAWWWWSSSWSSWS!11 for the BITOG crowd.
Blazer, have you tried a basketball needle to know that it doesn’t work? I feel safer using the basketball needle because the engine is much less likely to hydrolock when you are limiting the amount of water that can come in and not the engine. If it takes 2 minutes longer, so be it. Plug in the hose and take her on a trip, then you don’t have to worry about how long it takes
There is a lot of risk involved in sucking a non compressable, non-flammable liquid into an engine. In my opinion, most people I tell about it are worried about destroying the engine, and rightfully so.
Making something more idiot-proof allows more people to try, and not blow something up.
There was another thread where a guy hooked up his headlight washer fluid hose to a vacuum hose so he can hit a switch and clean the engine for 10 seconds. Kinda like NAAWWWWSSSWSSWS!11 for the BITOG crowd.
The whole point is to introduce enough water in fast enough to steam blast the cylinders clean.
Introducing a pin-flow of water will do essentially nothing. It will be just in and out of the cylinders without anything being done.
Think about it, that amount of water spread of a whole engine?
Seeing you were not seeing any stalling will show you that you weren't doing anything. No stalling, nothing being done.
If you use seafoam you get some stalling, if you use the mopar or GM combustion chamber cleaner you get some stalling.
Just trying to be straight with you, you would have to almost stick a 3/8 hose in a bucvket of water to hydrolock any engine so the small amount I am metering into the PCV line will not represent a problem. Lots of people have tried it and all LOVE it.
If you are not going to allow enough water in, you might as well not do it seeing you won't be really helping anything over 4 minutes. Maybe if you did that over say a week or so, but 4 minutes with that small flow yields nothing.
As said before, I allow just the edge of the pcv hose to touch the water line and the vacuum literally sucks up the perfect amount of water as you constantly modulate the throttle seeing the engine will try to stall a bit.
Introducing a pin-flow of water will do essentially nothing. It will be just in and out of the cylinders without anything being done.
Think about it, that amount of water spread of a whole engine?
Seeing you were not seeing any stalling will show you that you weren't doing anything. No stalling, nothing being done.
If you use seafoam you get some stalling, if you use the mopar or GM combustion chamber cleaner you get some stalling.
Just trying to be straight with you, you would have to almost stick a 3/8 hose in a bucvket of water to hydrolock any engine so the small amount I am metering into the PCV line will not represent a problem. Lots of people have tried it and all LOVE it.
If you are not going to allow enough water in, you might as well not do it seeing you won't be really helping anything over 4 minutes. Maybe if you did that over say a week or so, but 4 minutes with that small flow yields nothing.
As said before, I allow just the edge of the pcv hose to touch the water line and the vacuum literally sucks up the perfect amount of water as you constantly modulate the throttle seeing the engine will try to stall a bit.
Or, you are stifling the combustion process enough that it is not fully igniting the water, and it is being wasted.
Besides, I know that it worked because the oil changed colors and my plugs said I don’t like you for a good 3 hours afterwards, proving that something got loose and onto them.
How about we agree to disagree.
Besides, I know that it worked because the oil changed colors and my plugs said I don’t like you for a good 3 hours afterwards, proving that something got loose and onto them.
How about we agree to disagree.
Fully igniting the water? Since when is water combustable?
Of course I am going to be stifling the combustion process, that is what you are trying to do in part to get the water into steam so you can get the carbon absorbing the water from the intake charge.
You have to get enough water in there to produce enough steam to clean the cylinders. A little pin flow won't do this and is ESPECIALLY won't do this on a large V6 or a V8 like I was using it on.
I just put a gallon through my friends 1992 Honda civic and you wouldn't believe the soot and black water coming out the tailpipe.
He just called this past weekend and is head over heels happy with his car that is running just like new again and he has noticed a good increase in economy.
I don't disagree with you out of disrespect or ego, I am disagreeing with you seeing the small amount of water you are introducing through a needle will do nothing over a 4 minutes period.
Of course I am going to be stifling the combustion process, that is what you are trying to do in part to get the water into steam so you can get the carbon absorbing the water from the intake charge.
You have to get enough water in there to produce enough steam to clean the cylinders. A little pin flow won't do this and is ESPECIALLY won't do this on a large V6 or a V8 like I was using it on.
I just put a gallon through my friends 1992 Honda civic and you wouldn't believe the soot and black water coming out the tailpipe.
He just called this past weekend and is head over heels happy with his car that is running just like new again and he has noticed a good increase in economy.
I don't disagree with you out of disrespect or ego, I am disagreeing with you seeing the small amount of water you are introducing through a needle will do nothing over a 4 minutes period.
How about this. I have a friend who is considering doing a decarbon with my help. If he gives me the go ahead, I will do a test. Cant really get scientific with it, aside from this
As far as he and I know, the car has never had a FI cleaner, and has always been filled up at the cheap gas station
First, use 3 500ml bottle of filtered water(can’t get distilled water here that I know of), and put a piece of paper behind the tailpipe.
Use the basketball nozzle and suck up 500 mls of water
Then, move up to the vacuum line connector that came with the vacuum pump that I got mailed in from the states (about half the size of the hose), then
Last, unadulterated water through the hose that I have. It’s big enough to flood a 2L v-6 engine, because I did it twice the first time I did it to my car.
I used the full flow before I did the BB nozzle.
Leave about a minute or two of free running between them to make sure that everything that will flow out has flowed out.
Change the paper when a different nozzle is used.
Only problem I see is that the steam will start breaking stuff up, and it will be easier for the second and third sessions to break stuff up because it has already started breaking stuff up.
I think honestly that more water will do more, but I think at a certain point the water is stifling the combustion of the fuel, like I referred to in my last post. If the spark can’t carry throughout the CC, then I don’t see al the fuel being burned.
If he won’t let me, then I will do another run on my car, and see what happens with the same test. I don’t feel like I got everything out of there, so it doesn’t hurt my feelings to do it again on my car.
As far as he and I know, the car has never had a FI cleaner, and has always been filled up at the cheap gas station
First, use 3 500ml bottle of filtered water(can’t get distilled water here that I know of), and put a piece of paper behind the tailpipe.
Use the basketball nozzle and suck up 500 mls of water
Then, move up to the vacuum line connector that came with the vacuum pump that I got mailed in from the states (about half the size of the hose), then
Last, unadulterated water through the hose that I have. It’s big enough to flood a 2L v-6 engine, because I did it twice the first time I did it to my car.
I used the full flow before I did the BB nozzle.
Leave about a minute or two of free running between them to make sure that everything that will flow out has flowed out.
Change the paper when a different nozzle is used.
Only problem I see is that the steam will start breaking stuff up, and it will be easier for the second and third sessions to break stuff up because it has already started breaking stuff up.
I think honestly that more water will do more, but I think at a certain point the water is stifling the combustion of the fuel, like I referred to in my last post. If the spark can’t carry throughout the CC, then I don’t see al the fuel being burned.
If he won’t let me, then I will do another run on my car, and see what happens with the same test. I don’t feel like I got everything out of there, so it doesn’t hurt my feelings to do it again on my car.
You are right, but I am not telling people to stick the hose into a bottle of water, I am telling them to hold the vacuum hose just above the water line and allowing the vacuum to suck up a good amount of water slowly.
If you keep the engine rpms up to 2000-2500, no harm will ever come.
I have tried this now on three engines and all of them have had some great results.
If you keep the engine rpms up to 2000-2500, no harm will ever come.
I have tried this now on three engines and all of them have had some great results.
Thanks for the information. I decarbonized through the brake booster line 1 gallon of distilled water. For the first 30 seconds there was lots of smoke coming from my exhaust. After I completed the procedure, I took it for a ride and it accelerated smoother. It’s a quick & cheap way to keep your car in good shape.
P.S.
I attached a basketball needle to the end of the brake booster line and initially put the needle into the water, but it sucked so water so quickly that my rpms went from 3,500 to 1,800 after about 2 seconds. I then decided the safe way was to put the needle in for a second and take it out, then repeat this process. If I had kept the needle in the gallon of water, it would have stalled the engine without a question. Will measure mpg and see how much it helped in the next couple of fill-ups.
Thanks again,
Oren
P.S.
I attached a basketball needle to the end of the brake booster line and initially put the needle into the water, but it sucked so water so quickly that my rpms went from 3,500 to 1,800 after about 2 seconds. I then decided the safe way was to put the needle in for a second and take it out, then repeat this process. If I had kept the needle in the gallon of water, it would have stalled the engine without a question. Will measure mpg and see how much it helped in the next couple of fill-ups.
Thanks again,
Oren
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
I have a horizontal TB intake system.
Then you can't pour it in there ..and if you don't have a cetrally located vacuum tap ..you can put it in there ..but it won't get to all cylinders.
That's all I'm saying. Take my 3.0 Mitsubishi. It has a horizontal throttle body at the drivers side of the engine. It doesn't have a PCV ..it has a metered orifice that is tapped to the front cylinder on the front drivers side. No pouring or sucking water there either
I'd have to finely atomize a water spray to assure that it reached the rear intake ports.
There's nothing wrong with water cleaning. I'm just pointing out some technological road blocks to the use of it in some engines.
Then you can't pour it in there ..and if you don't have a cetrally located vacuum tap ..you can put it in there ..but it won't get to all cylinders.
That's all I'm saying. Take my 3.0 Mitsubishi. It has a horizontal throttle body at the drivers side of the engine. It doesn't have a PCV ..it has a metered orifice that is tapped to the front cylinder on the front drivers side. No pouring or sucking water there either
I'd have to finely atomize a water spray to assure that it reached the rear intake ports.
There's nothing wrong with water cleaning. I'm just pointing out some technological road blocks to the use of it in some engines.
Kestas
Staff member
Gary, I don't see the horizontal architecture of the intake as any problem at all. If you throttle water through a clear line using a manifold vacuum port, or spray (or drip) water near the intake, the suction and turbulence inside the manifold should bring the water to each cylinder. Air velocity in a manifold is tremendously strong.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Yes, but one would reason, if not atomized properly, that the heavier droplets would not reach the rear cylinders in the same proportions as the front ..or not at all. We're not spraying fuel from an injector here ..nor inducing it from a venturi (though we may attempt to simulate one). All the vacuum ports are at the throttle body ..which is at one end of the plenumn.
This just could be my 3.0 Mitsubishi's specific design. There are no high volume vacuum ports on the TB. All appear to be "ported" vacuum. Nothing, except the one runner metered orifice appears to have "below the throttle body" manifold vacuum.
This just could be my 3.0 Mitsubishi's specific design. There are no high volume vacuum ports on the TB. All appear to be "ported" vacuum. Nothing, except the one runner metered orifice appears to have "below the throttle body" manifold vacuum.
- Status
