Warranty issues if you change it yourself?

[Mystic]

Somebody a while back said that they allow the dealer to change the oil, but then put in their own oil afterwards. Wasteful, but the dealership has their own records that the oil and oil filter were changed, and if anything goes wrong it is all there on their computers.

I have been letting my dealer do the first few oil changes. They use Quaker State oil which is not an oil that excites me but that is what they use. Oil changes at the dealership are inexpensive.
Probably any decent conventional motor oil would be acceptable if you are doing 3000 mile oil changes. I would be a whole lot happier if the dealership used Chevron or Pennzoil or Castrol, but Saturn seems to be really big on Quaker State.

Go the first year or so letting the dealership do the changes, and then do them yourself (but keep really good records). If something is going to go wrong, it is likely you would notice it the first year. If you don't like conventional motor oil, it probably will not make a difference if the first 12,000 miles are with the dealership supplied conventional motor oil. Do an Auto-RX cleaning and then go synthetic.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by doitmyself:
I just wonder how the company is going to accept a pile of receipts as evidence that the maintenance work was actually performed.

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Receipts and a log of when you did the work is enough. It's just as valid as reciepts from a dealer or oil changer.

The log shoul be written in a bound book, not loose leaf. The back of your owner's manual is a good place. A witness signature would be a nice touch, but likely unnecesary.

Believe it or not, the primary reason they insist on records is to be sure they aren't getting screwed on warranty claims by people who don't maintain their cars. If your engine failure doesn't look like it was caused by poor maintenance, they probably won't even ask to see your records.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mystic:
Somebody a while back said that they allow the dealer to change the oil, but then put in their own oil afterwards. Wasteful, but the dealership has their own records that the oil and oil filter were changed, and if anything goes wrong it is all there on their computers.

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You would need low personal ethics to do that. I doubt that anyone here would really be that dishonest.

quote:

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If you don't like conventional motor oil, it probably will not make a difference if the first 12,000 miles are with the dealership supplied conventional motor oil. Do an Auto-RX cleaning and then go synthetic.

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No need to avoid using synthetic. Most dealers carry at least one line of synthetic. The dealer where I bought my GMC truck would also install your own oil if you brought it in and it was the right spec. I just had him use their M1, I think he only charged about $1 per quart more than the parts stores.

 

[ALS]

[/qb][/QUOTE]Receipts and a log of when you did the work is enough. It's just as valid as reciepts from a dealer or oil changer.

Believe it or not, the primary reason they insist on records is to be sure they aren't getting screwed on warranty claims by people who don't maintain their cars. If your engine failure doesn't look like it was caused by poor maintenance, they probably won't even ask to see your records. [/QB][/QUOTE]

My old dealer use to write in permanant marker the RO, date and mileage on every filter they changed. Volvo filters are a nice bright white. They got screwed too many times by people that said they changed the oil themselves or at a local garage. Most of the problems were with the BMW owners. Solved a lot of major problems with warranty claims. Tough to say you changed the oil and filter every 5K miles, when the last time in at the dealer was 15K miles ago and the same filter is still on the car.

 

[dagmando]

My recommendation as working for BMW service for 10 years: if you change the oil yourself, buy the oil/filter close to the day you are going to change the oil and of course write the date/mileage on the receipt. I have had to ask customer for records and these are the best as opposed to buying four cases of oil and a dozen filter three years ago and then claiming these were used. Separate receipts, with date/mileage recorded for each change is hardest to question. The worse thing to do is just show up with an Excel spreadsheet with dates/mileages and no receipts. Remember, the dealer does not have to prove you did not do proper maintenace, you have to prove you did. If you have engine issues that could be caused my improper maintenace, you had better have receipts to prove you did the "required" maintenace. They also do not care about "normal" and "severe" service. If you did not service according to at least the normal service (I.E. 7500 miles changes) that is considered improper maintenace.

 

[1 BAD 03 MM]

I use Amsoil, have a DR by-pass sytem, have done all my own maintenance, and Ford replaced a cylinder head. All the service guy asked was, "either bring us the oil and filter you want us to use" or, I told em just use the 5W20 and and FL-1A on the DR. (which I promptly changed back to ASL 5W30 and an SDF 15)

 

[mrdctaylor]

That's good to know. I just can't see a dealer hassling you about records unless there are some serious oil issues with the vehicle. I don't save receipts, but keep excellent records in a spreadsheet and use top quality synthetics. If they demand receipts, they can take a flying leap. I'll go to another dealer.

 

[JohnnyO]

My .02 is that IF there is an oil-related warranty claim (doubtful) and IF you had no receipts or records, a UOA would then back you up. I've put well over 100k on most of my vehicles using Valvoline

(until recently) and never had a problem except for one head gasket, and that on an engine that tends to eat them anyway.
I can change my own and check everything on the list in way less time than the dealer takes and put in much better oil for the same money.

 

[mrdctaylor]

...plus, many of us have had bad experiences with oil change places--even dealers. My father-in-law went back to watch his Ford being serviced at the dealer, only to see the guy using a pair of pliars on a perfectly good drain plug. After that, he never took it back.

I've had the filler cap left off before and got all over my engine compartment. Lots of nice stuff like that. I also had a dealer that put straight 30W in all vehicles serviced in their shop. I always asked for 5W30, but they always argued with me, and I have a feeling I got straight 30W a few times.

I'd just prefer to take care of my own--that way I know its done right. And if not, I only have myself to blame.

[ April 20, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: mrdctaylor ]

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by dagmando:
The worse thing to do is just show up with an Excel spreadsheet with dates/mileages and no receipts. Remember, the dealer does not have to prove you did not do proper maintenace, you have to prove you did.

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I'd be the first to agree that good documentation is important and very helpful if the need ever does arise. But you've got the burdens reversed. Although a lot of dealers and manufacturers would like everyone to believe that the customer has the burden of proof, this is totally untrue. Under the Moss-Magnuson Warranty Act, which governs NEW car warranties, the car maker must prove a valid basis for a claim denial. Now, if they have some evidence to suggest a lack of care (sludge, for example) then the owner had better be able to refute that with his or her own proof of care. But no one should let a dealer tell them that the simple lack of full documentation, without more, voids a warranty claim.

On the other hand, "aftermarket" extended warranties are another story. They are typically governed only be contract law (if you have any question, consult a lawyer in your home state/province), and they can impose all sorts of requirements, so everyone who has one needs to be extra careful. This fact alone casts a long shadow over the usefulness of such warranties, at least IMO.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
.... Now, if they have some evidence to suggest a lack of care (sludge, for example) then the owner had better be able to refute that with his or her own proof of care. But no one should let a dealer tell them that the simple lack of full documentation, without more, voids a warranty claim. ....

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I don't disagree with what you said, but...There is a large grey area where the dealer thinks, or even would like to think that a problem being evaluated for warranty claim was caused by poor maintenenace.

For instance, if the dealer says the problem was caused by poor maintenance and you don't have maintenance records (do-it-yourself is OK with receipts), then you will have an uphill battle to get the dealers decision reversed, and most likely fail. In small claims court, the judge is more likely to side with the dealer who says the owner didn't take care of the proper car of the car when the owner can't prove that he did.

What the outhouse lawyers here don't seem to understand is that if the dealers service department says the problem was caused by not meeting minumum maintenence requirements, then it's up to the owner to prove otherwise because the dealers service department is considered to be experts on the subject. If they aren't big enough experts, the zone office will usually back them up unless they are being completely unreasonable.

If it look like a lube caused failure and the dealer asks for proof of specified maintenance and you can't supply it, then be prepared to foot the bill.

 

[Fred Bear]

my brother is so anal about this, he has his wife video tape all of his service work and shows a close up of the the odometer and the newspaper (for the date). He then backs the data up on DVD and on 2 hard drives.

 

[mrdctaylor]

They can't simply "claim" that you didn't maintain your car. They have to prove it. I.e. "it was 2 quarts low, sludged to high heaven, and the UOA was horrible." If the oil is in good shape, they will have a hard time proving that your lack of maintenace caused the problem. Again, they have the burden of proof.

All of this is pretty much a moot point anyway. Dealers want to do warranty work and will likely not refute your claim. They will do the work and get paid by the manufacturer. I've never heard of a dealer denying a claim unless it was incredibly obvious the person didn't maintain their car. Even then, most will cover it.

 

[JohnnyO]

quote:

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Originally posted by mrdctaylor:
I've never heard of a dealer denying a claim unless it was incredibly obvious the person didn't maintain their car. Even then, most will cover it.

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Manager at the Olds dealer I used to work at told me a story about how back in the late-60's a guy brought back in a pretty new 442. He lunched the 4-speed (again) drag racing. Car is sitting out front, big puddle of gear lube under it. A guy walks up, asks what happened. Owner says, "Oh I was powershifting at the strip and broke the tranny, no problem, the warranty will cover it." Guy says, "I'm the factory rep and no it won't."

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by XS650:

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
.... Now, if they have some evidence to suggest a lack of care (sludge, for example) then the owner had better be able to refute that with his or her own proof of care. But no one should let a dealer tell them that the simple lack of full documentation, without more, voids a warranty claim. ....

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I don't disagree with what you said, but...There is a large grey area where the dealer thinks, or even would like to think that a problem being evaluated for warranty claim was caused by poor maintenenace.

For instance, if the dealer says the problem was caused by poor maintenance and you don't have maintenance records (do-it-yourself is OK with receipts), then you will have an uphill battle to get the dealers decision reversed, and most likely fail. In small claims court, the judge is more likely to side with the dealer who says the owner didn't take care of the proper car of the car when the owner can't prove that he did.

What the outhouse lawyers here don't seem to understand is that if the dealers service department says the problem was caused by not meeting minumum maintenence requirements, then it's up to the owner to prove otherwise because the dealers service department is considered to be experts on the subject. If they aren't big enough experts, the zone office will usually back them up unless they are being completely unreasonable.

If it look like a lube caused failure and the dealer asks for proof of specified maintenance and you can't supply it, then be prepared to foot the bill.

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Let me say in advance that I don't take any of this personally, but in case you were referring to me, I'm not an outhouse lawyer. I happen to be a honest-to-goodness real one. Gotta a card in my wallet to prove it. . .

What's getting missed here is the meaning of burden of proof and how it operates to the benefit of the party who DOES NOT have it. Trial in a case like this is NOT free-for-all in which all the evidence gets tossed in a heap, and a small claims judge can say, "well, I like that better..." Since the manufacturer HAS THE BURDEN, it has to offer competent evidence that there was neglect or improper action by that owner, AND (and this is key) that this neglect ACTUALLY CAUSED the claimed defect. They can't just say 1) he didn't do minimum maintenance, and 2) his engine broke, and then hope a vague inference of guilt will stick. The key is that they have to prove the link. Someone would have to say something like, "I examined this engine and it failed because this main bearing lost oil flow, and this happened because oil flow was blocked by accumulated sludge, which built up because of a lack of oil changes. . ."

Once the manufacturer presents sufficient evidence of this specificity, then and only then, would the owner have to prove or say anything. Without evidence of cause, the owner would be entitled to what's normally called a "directed verdict" before he has to prove anything. Only if the mfr gets past this point would it then become a so-called "swearing match." ("I did change my oil, and here's the proof..." "OK, I didn't change my oil as often as I should, but as you can see from my UOA, the oil was fine..." There are other possibilities, but you get the idea).

Now, all this said, I'd be the first to agree that the very best course of action is to avoid a protracted fight, even if you're bound to win it in the end. Best to get what you want up front, peacefully. Keep all your receipts!!! But don't give up if you don't have them either.

As always, anyone who has a real problem like this should immediately consult a lawyer in their own jurisdiction!

[ April 20, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk:
Let me say in advance that I don't take any of this personally, but in case you were referring to me, I'm not an outhouse lawyer. I happen to be a honest-to-goodness real one. Gotta a card in my wallet to prove it. . .

.....

As always, anyone who has a real problem like this should immediately consult a lawyer in their own jurisdiction!

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Re 1st quoted paragraph: Nope, I wasn't refering to you.

Re 2nd quoted paragraph: Nothing personal or professional, but avoiding needing to see a lawyer over a relatively small problem like an engine warranty is one h*ll of a good reason to keep receipts and a maintenance log.

 

[wtd]

I change my own oil and never keep oil and filter receipts. I do keep a detailed logbook that details every maintainence and repair work done and lists brands and part numbers of what is used. I personally don't feel receipts make a difference because there is no proof that the oil and filter listed on the receipt was actually used on that particular vehicle. The bottom line is that the condition of the vehicle and engine is going to determine whether or not regular maintenace was done. I have a 98 ext-cab Z71 chevy truck that I bought new and have had for almost six years. The truck still looks almost brand new inside and out. There is no one that could look at and inspect this truck and tell me that regular maintenance was not done.

Wayne

 

[Ray H]

All this relates to the Moss-Magnusen Act. By way of explanation, in the end, it's not the dealer who provides your vehicle's warranty - it's the vehicle manufacturer. Every owner's manual I've ever perused states that it's OK to do your own maintenance as long as your keep records and receipts that support that maintenance was performed according to the manufacturer's maintenance schedule for the type of service the vehicle is operated under. If the manufacturer is looking at an engine swap on his nickel, he has every legal right to demand presentation of receipts for materials and maintenance logs to back up the vehicle owner's warranty claim. But, it is not up to the vehicle owner to "prove" he did the work by means other than the stated maintenance log and the receipts for materials requirements. If the manufacturer feels the engine tanked due to whatever suspected cause in spite of vehicle owner maintenance logs and materials receipts, it's the manufacturer's legal burden to prove that in court. No guarantee that the decision will always come down in favor of the vehicle owner, but the law is clearly skewed in favor of the consumer in this instance. A lot of nuisance litigation is probably avoided because of this since the manufacturer knows he's in an uphill fight.

[ April 20, 2004, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[thrace]

Posted by Fred Bear

"my brother is so anal about this, he has his wife video tape all of his service work and shows a close up of the the odometer and the newspaper (for the date). "

I do this also for my Honda. I believe that I will need to prove service was performed. After all, the dealer may claim that Honda cannot be at fault and that all problems are the owner's fault. From past experience, I cannot trust this dealer in any way. Once they even failed to change the oil along with other services that I asked for.

On my Mopar, I had a core plug replaced under warranty. The dealer asked for no records and fixed it near the end of the warranty.

[ April 20, 2004, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: thrace ]

 

[Pitbull]

quote:

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Originally posted by mrdctaylor:
...plus, many of us have had bad experiences with oil change places--even dealers. My father-in-law went back to watch his Ford being serviced at the dealer, only to see the guy using a pair of pliars on a perfectly good drain plug. After that, he never took it back.

I've had the filler cap left off before and got all over my engine compartment. Lots of nice stuff like that. I also had a dealer that put straight 30W in all vehicles serviced in their shop. I always asked for 5W30, but they always argued with me, and I have a feeling I got straight 30W a few times.

I'd just prefer to take care of my own--that way I know its done right. And if not, I only have myself to blame.

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Everything your saying is true. Had them forget to put oil in a Lexus once, but they backed up that mistake. Now when anyone else changes the oil and filter I check to make sure everything was done before I drive off. Live and learn.