Warranty Facts

[BrianC]

Many,many posts contain warranty concerns for doing this or that.

The Factory Warranty is a non issue in the US....Period. An OEM cannot void a factory warranty because you use a viscosity oil not listed or a non OEM filter or an aftermarket part installed by the owner...period!

A failure must occur that can be attributed to the lubricant/filter/ or part used. If the OEM can't prove that, they must provide warranty coverage for the failed component....Period.

It's time to put these warranty concerns to rest. If the oil/filter/part didn't cause a failure, the OEM factory warranty can't be voided. The burden of proof is on the OEM in the US. The magnuson moss warranty act of 1975 provides this protection for any car bought in the US.

However, be advised that this may not true for "so-called" extended warranties, which are, in many cases, insurance policies or service contracts. check the mice type. You might be surprised with what you have. Unless it is truly an extended OEM warranty, the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act may not apply. Insurance policies and service contracts, that provide repairs may not cover you if you violate any provisions of your manual (including NOT having your vehicle serviced at an OEM dealership). Know what you really have and service your vehicle accordingly. In may cases, an extended "so Called" warranty is an expensive trap, not the piece of mind, it was sold as.

Needless to say, I do not buy extended 3rd party warranties for this reason.

 

[OVERKILL]

True. But the the dealer/OEM can make it a huge PITA if they find you were running a non-approved product and end up needing something covered. This, IMHO, makes it worth the while to just stick with a spec lubricant while under warranty.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
True. But the the dealer/OEM can make it a huge PITA if they find you were running a non-approved product and end up needing something covered. This, IMHO, makes it worth the while to just stick with a spec lubricant while under warranty.

Thought Ford was sometimes known to send out a UOA on engine failures? That would be enough for me to stick to spec'ed oil & changed it regularly.

 

[BrianC]

If a OEM requires a specific approved product be used, they must provide it at no cost. (such as "only an OEM filter") or (Only Mobil 1 5w-30.)

They can recommend all they want. They cannot demand. No huge PITA, supply the approved product at no charge, if it is a warranty issue. I've had this debate with dealers 3 times in the last 20 years, in each case, I prevailed. Don't be intimated by your dealer or OEM. Know the law and know what your extended warranty contracts really say.

These extended "so called" warranty's are where the real problems occur.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: BrianC
Many,many posts contain warranty concerns for doing this or that.

The Factory Warranty is a non issue in the US....Period. An OEM cannot void a factory warranty because you use a viscosity oil not listed or a non OEM filter or an aftermarket part installed by the owner...period!

A failure must occur that can be attributed to the lubricant/filter/ or part used. If the OEM can't prove that, they must provide warranty coverage for the failed component....Period.

It's time to put these warranty concerns to rest. If the oil/filter/part didn't cause a failure, the OEM factory warranty can't be voided. The burden of proof is on the OEM in the US. The magnuson moss warranty act of 1975 provides this protection for any car bought in the US.

However, be advised that this may not true for "so-called" extended warranties, which are, in many cases, insurance policies or service contracts. check the mice type. You might be surprised with what you have. Unless it is truly an extended OEM warranty, the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act may not apply. Insurance policies and service contracts, that provide repairs may not cover you if you violate any provisions of your manual (including NOT having your vehicle serviced at an OEM dealership). Know what you really have and service your vehicle accordingly. In may cases, an extended "so Called" warranty is an expensive trap, not the piece of mind, it was sold as.

Needless to say, I do not buy extended 3rd party warranties for this reason.



The Mag-Moss circus act was passed for the benefit of after market parts/accessories manufacturers. It is of very little use to the "do it yourself person". It's like as someone has stated...Ford, GM, Whoever will make it extremely difficult. They have a whole boardroom full of lawyers. It's going to be you and your SINGLE lawyer up against their boardroom. For those of us who have been involved in litigation and lawyer costs....believe me it's not a place you even want to go. Ford and GM (and probably others) are denying warranty coverage as I type this. Go over on the Ford boards and read how Ford uses the terms "Owner negligence" or "Contaminated diesel fuel" to get out of warranty coverage. Then these poor guys have to go and hire very expensive lawyers to get their $50,000.00 truck repaired or replaced.

 

[dave1251]

Why do I believe this is a tall tale? Because I have never had this happen to me nor have I witnessed it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: BrianC
If a OEM requires a specific approved product be used, they must provide it at no cost. (such as "only an OEM filter") or (Only Mobil 1 5w-30.)

They can recommend all they want. They cannot demand. No huge PITA, supply the approved product at no charge, if it is a warranty issue. I've had this debate with dealers 3 times in the last 20 years, in each case, I prevailed. Don't be intimated by your dealer or OEM. Know the law and know what your extended warranty contracts really say.

These extended "so called" warranty's are where the real problems occur.



No, they cannot specify you use a SPECIFIC lubricant (IE Ford telling you to use Ford oil) however, they can certainly require you to use an oil that meets their performance spec's like LL-01, MBxx, GMxxx....etc.

 

[Rand]

they can also void warranties for using the wrong transmission fluid. Sometimes the oem has the only fluid meeting the spec.

Getting a lawyer and taking them to court for warranty coverage is horrible.

you are going to say "transmission fluid XXX didn't make my transmission disintegrate, and their expert will say that it did make it self destruct" then where are you?

 

[BrianC]

Quote:



The Mag-Moss circus act was passed for the benefit of after market parts/accessories manufacturers. It is of very little use to the "do it yourself person". It's like as someone has stated...Ford, GM, Whoever will make it extremely difficult. They have a whole boardroom full of lawyers. It's going to be you and your SINGLE lawyer up against their boardroom. For those of us who have been involved in litigation and lawyer costs....believe me it's not a place you even want to go. Ford and GM (and probably others) are denying warranty coverage as I type this. Go over on the Ford boards and read how Ford uses the terms "Owner negligence" or "Contaminated diesel fuel" to get out of warranty coverage. Then these poor guys have to go and hire very expensive lawyers to get their $50,000.00 truck repaired or replaced.


I get your point, but if we don't stand up to the OEM, who will. Onwner negligence can be disproved with receipts. Contaminated fuel, is a whole different issue..how is the buyer to know.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Thought Ford was sometimes known to send out a UOA on engine failures?

If they were to send out a UOA, they'd be hard pressed to prove the original grade, let alone whether it was actually a certified lube. A UOA would definitely have its uses for them, but determining whether a lube is certified or not would not be one of them.

 

[Nyogtha]

BrianC,

Are you standing up to blow an engine and show us how the burden of proof is on them for all of us?

trust me, I'm right behind you

 

[BrianC]

Quote:
No, they cannot specify you use a SPECIFIC lubricant (IE Ford telling you to use Ford oil) however, they can certainly require you to use an oil that meets their performance spec's like LL-01, MBxx, GMxxx....etc.


Not on a car purchased in the US. The OEM must prove the lubricant caused the failure, regardless of the brand, grade, or standards claimed.

I'm not recommending people not use the proper spec oil. I am saying this continual hand wringing over 5w20 or 0w20 as an example is simply not an issue.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: CKN

The Mag-Moss circus act was passed for the benefit of after market parts/accessories manufacturers. It is of very little use to the "do it yourself person". It's like as someone has stated...Ford, GM, Whoever will make it extremely difficult. They have a whole boardroom full of lawyers. It's going to be you and your SINGLE lawyer up against their boardroom. For those of us who have been involved in litigation and lawyer costs....believe me it's not a place you even want to go. Ford and GM (and probably others) are denying warranty coverage as I type this. Go over on the Ford boards and read how Ford uses the terms "Owner negligence" or "Contaminated diesel fuel" to get out of warranty coverage. Then these poor guys have to go and hire very expensive lawyers to get their $50,000.00 truck repaired or replaced.


This is the fact^^^.
Just use what's been tested, proven and recommended by the OEM to work in your application and you'll be fine. I agree, warranty concerns are exasperated on forums but they are not a 'non issue'.

 

[crazyoildude]

Use what is recommended or there can be problems when push comes to shove.
I just asked someone who is a Lawyer and had battled both sides for years. If you use something that is not approved it can go to trial and it would be up to someone that is deciding the case and may not knoe anything about cars.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
True. But the the dealer/OEM can make it a huge PITA if they find you were running a non-approved product and end up needing something covered. This, IMHO, makes it worth the while to just stick with a spec lubricant while under warranty.



Good points. What people fail to realize is their car sits and waits while things get sorted out. I laugh when I see the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act mentioned. I recall a few cases where people messed with their cars/trucks while under warranty and came back looking for the dealership to make the repairs. The dealer doesn't have to prove a modification, or aftermarket part didn't cause the problem, the customer does. The dealer simply says, the repair isn't covered under warranty because you did x or y to the car. The customer has to prove otherwise. While this goes on the car sits with no repairs getting done to it.

 

[BrianC]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
BrianC,

Are you standing up to blow an engine and show us how the burden of proof is on them for all of us?

trust me, I'm right behind you

Lol, no I'm pretty conservative really, but I do use an non API certified oil. But my point is really theses little details which are really not an issue. The real issue is knowing what is contained in aftermarket (so-called) warranties that aren't governed by the MAG/MOSS ACT. Those are what folks need to really read if they have one.

They might find they have signed a contract which they are obilgated to abide by.

 

[splinter]

It's easy enough for many here to read and understand the terms, conditions and exclusions of factory warranties, yes?

Aftermarket offers are often suspect and rife with loopholes, however.

No J.D. required...merely passing scores as can be earned from most middle schools' reading proficiency testing.

 

[BrianC]

Well, my point is, know your OEM warranty, your rights, and really take a look at any aftermarket "so called" warranties you may have. They can make havoc on your life.

Thanks for the discussion, my points were not intended to offend but to alert.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: BrianC
Quote:
No, they cannot specify you use a SPECIFIC lubricant (IE Ford telling you to use Ford oil) however, they can certainly require you to use an oil that meets their performance spec's like LL-01, MBxx, GMxxx....etc.


Not on a car purchased in the US. The OEM must prove the lubricant caused the failure, regardless of the brand, grade, or standards claimed.

I'm not recommending people not use the proper spec oil. I am saying this continual hand wringing over 5w20 or 0w20 as an example is simply not an issue.


They certainly can and I've seen that exact verbiage in a number of owners manuals lately. I've also quoted the relevant section from the MM act on the subject in the past.

The reason they can, and it is reasonable is that a particular engine may require a lubricant meeting a minimum level of performance to satisfy not only the OEM's wear performance parameters but to also coincide with the programming of the OLM. If the OEM was unable to specify a lubricant meeting their performance parameters there is nothing stopping Joe Blow idiot from running City Star recycled garbage in his M6 and nuking the engine.

Now of course this only applies to the engine. Using the incorrect lubricant means he has the potential to void his ENGINE warranty for not following the requirements as dictated by the OEM. He would still have warranty on the rest of the car.

Ford manual:

BMW's statement:

Originally Posted By: BMW

If you need to add oil between oil changes and BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is unavailable, you may top up the oil level with one of the following approved synthetic oils. For information on checking your engine oil level refer to your vehicle's Owner's Manual.


Mercedes:

Originally Posted By: Mercedes

We recommend using exclusively the products in the following lists that have been checked and approved by Mercedes-Benz because:
- design parts and operating fluids are tailored to one another
- damages that occur due to the usage of non-approved operating fluids are not covered by the warranty.

The approval by Mercedes-Benz is noted on the containers, for engine oils: e.g.: MB-Approval 229.51.



Audi:

Originally Posted By: Audi

Service

Oil Quality

All Audi engines must always use engine oils that conform to the applicable Audi Oil Quality Standard. No other engine oils may be used. This also applies when topping off engine oil between services.

Recommendation for Customers
It is recommended that the customer always carry a spare quart/liter of engine oil that conforms to the applicable Audi Oil Quality Standard in case the engine oil needs topping off while on the road. The spare quart/liter of oil should be stored in its original container, securely closed in the luggage compartment. Ensure the container is securely stowed.


And one quote from the MM:
http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides/ftc/warranties/undermag.htm

Quote:
"Tie-In Sales" Provisions
Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.

In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.

While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product.


The last part is relevant. If the OEM requires, for proper performance, an oil that meets performance spec XYZ (which does NOT have to come from the manufacturer, IE, Ford, Audi, BMW....etc), then they do not have to warranty the use of something that is inappropriate for their product. This is somewhat common sense. The point of the MM law is to prevent manufacturers from abusing warranties and using scare tactics for tie-in sales. It is not to allow the American consumer to do whatever the heck they want without fear of repercussion or invalidation of their warranty.

 

[dlundblad]

After reading what I have seen here and if I owned a vehicle under warranty, I would only buy my oil and filter at a place that displays the names on the receipts.. Just for the sake of easiness, I would stick with 1 approved brand until the warranty expired. Then Id keep them in a nice envelope and keep them on hand for future reference if needed.

Then again, from what I've read here, even that may not be enough.. Lol.