VW 502 to 504 really worth it?

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I really know little about VAG DI petrols but since i'm in Europe i know somethimg about old DI engines. In early 2000 Alfa Romeo designed new 2.0 Jts engine with DI. Around 100k km cars would start losing power from 165 to in worse case 130 hp. Reason we all know: carbon deposits on intake valves. I was talking with an AR specialist and guy told me that they (manufacturer) changed map/ timing and oil grade. From 5w40/10w40 to fully synthetic 10w60. He sad that with this changes problem was solved, atleast in majority of cars.
 
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Valve deposit resistance is part of the 504 spec.
The lubrizol findings pertaining to lower SAPS oils is certainly a valid point that seems to contradict this guy's findings. As for the valve deposit test included in the 504 spec, theoretically it doesn't prove anything. Potentially the 502 oils could also excel on this test (or even do better), but since it's not required, then I guess we'll never know.
 
Good info right off the lubrizol page yet the guy from Audizone never mentions it? Anyone here a member of that website to send that guy a post and ask about that? I'd hate to sign up just for that. All I know is in in 120F+ heat with the a/c at full blast in city driving with dusty conditions. If the 504 PU in my car holds up in these conditions it will hold up anywhere. Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Valve deposit resistance is part of the 504 spec.
The lubrizol findings pertaining to lower SAPS oils is certainly a valid point that seems to contradict this guy's findings. As for the valve deposit test included in the 504 spec, theoretically it doesn't prove anything. Potentially the 502 oils could also excel on this test (or even do better), but since it's not required, then I guess we'll never know.
How so? The report was Euro 3 which is 502 I believe vs euro 4 which is 504. Am I missing something here? 504 is 40% less deposits vs 502 so what will we never know? Maybe 504 has a base oil or an additive in it like the guy from audizone was talking about and thus less deposits? Or is it the HTHS of 504 oils that are the reason? I realize is not that simple but just from hindsight. Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Good info right off the lubrizol page yet the guy from Audizone never mentions it? Anyone here a member of that website to send that guy a post and ask about that? I'd hate to sign up just for that.
I already replied in that thread, in case you missed it.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
How so? The report was Euro 3 which is 502 I believe vs euro 4 which is 504. Am I missing something here?
I was talking about the test that's included in the sequence of tests to obtain the 504 certification that vinu_neuro highlighted earlier:
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Good info right off the lubrizol page yet the guy from Audizone never mentions it? Anyone here a member of that website to send that guy a post and ask about that? I'd hate to sign up just for that.
I already replied in that thread, in case you missed it.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post9951393 He lost me. Not sure I understand what he's talking about anymore...
 
QP Thanks for posting on the audi site. I think the guy works for a competitor of lubrizol so it's going to turn into a p I s s I n g match. I still do not understand how he feels a group 4+will reduce deposits since it's the additives that are causing the issues not the base oil? Then again all goes to who you believe? Lubrizol blames the additives while this uk guy blames the base oil. So difficult on who to believe. I mean I would run Redline 5w30 in my car with confidence but lubrication isn't the question. Valve deposit reduction is. At least for me. As for one oil wearing more than an other is a debate that takes years to prove either way. Jeff
 
Im curious too how the UK guy in the Audizone site says that he would use a 504 oil before using a group 3+ oil? Arent most 504 oils group 3+ oil? Im curious to who this guy works for. I mean, if it was that simple to say, use a product like Redline, or some group 4+ oil and you will have less issues. I just find it hard to believe its that simple. If it was,I would just start using Redline 5w30 that they recommend for my GTI. I think there is more to it than that though. Additives themselves must have something to do with the carbon build up because having less of them proves 40% less deposits. Sure Lubrizol is a company that sells additives, but they also showed the proof, wasnt hearsay. The guy in the Audizone posts also said that there needs to be a coating on the valves to prevent the carbon build up? They do have a special coating. That is the VW patent I posted I think on the first page. That coating is supposed to resist carbon deposits and to clean them you simply do an Italian tune up every so often to clean the valves. All this makes me curious. Very curious. crzy Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Im curious too how the UK guy in the Audizone site says that he would use a 504 oil before using a group 3+ oil? Arent most 504 oils group 3+ oil? Im curious to who this guy works for. I mean, if it was that simple to say, use a product like Redline, or some group 4+ oil and you will have less issues. I just find it hard to believe its that simple. If it was,I would just start using Redline 5w30 that they recommend for my GTI. I think there is more to it than that though. Additives themselves must have something to do with the carbon build up because having less of them proves 40% less deposits. Sure Lubrizol is a company that sells additives, but they also showed the proof, wasnt hearsay. The guy in the Audizone posts also said that there needs to be a coating on the valves to prevent the carbon build up? They do have a special coating. That is the VW patent I posted I think on the first page. That coating is supposed to resist carbon deposits and to clean them you simply do an Italian tune up every so often to clean the valves. All this makes me curious. Very curious. crzy Jeff
I think his reasoning is bcs 504.00 is blend of several base groups and not only that, due to very strict requirements, base oils are carefully selected. if you remember, Lubrizol in the table says that VW505.01 which was approval for previous generation of VW diesel engines is Group 3. On other hand, table says that VW504.00/507.00 are Group 3, 4 and 5. I think it is because it is ahrd to achieve what VW requires only with Group 3+. Looking at the M1 ESP numbers it is hard to believe that it was made only of Group 3+ without using Group 4 and 5, especially very good pour point and flash point. Also, Pentosin on the German web site says that their VW504.00/507.00 is made from Synthetic based oils, while on same site their VW505.01 is advertised as HC oil.
 
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there. To be honest though I'm not really sure what I'm looking for. I ultimately seek the oil the will give the best wear protection and help with the valve deposit issue. Wear though would be very difficult to prove over the short term and with the synthetics of today? Wear would take 100k or more and then compare to what? Just way to subjective. So that leaves me with valve deposit issues. That is really the only reason I'm using 504 right now vs 502. Still will take 40k miles or more to really know. What are all you guys thinking on this? Jeff
 
I guess I over simplify things a little too much but I am of the belief that the better the base stock the less deposits in an engine period since they tend to burn cleaner and resist oxidation better. I'm pretty sure that there are tests done to prove otherwise but until I see conclusive evidence I'll believe this to the fullest. Hence I use Royal Purple in my Audi A6 3.0L TFSI engine. I'll really be surprised if there is any carbon build up in this engine after 100,000 miles if i so choose to keep it till then but I highly doubt it.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there. What are all you guys thinking on this? Jeff
I think I proved out ESP 504 by UOA when it first came out, and it's a 5k oil and no more due to tbn retention.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there. What are all you guys thinking on this? Jeff
I think I proved out ESP 504 by UOA when it first came out, and it's a 5k oil and no more due to tbn retention.
I think it is def. 5K in CA. However, I would like to see several UOA before making such conclusion. Each state has it's own blend of gas. It looks like here in CO TBN tend to deplete pretty fast. In my M1 0W40 UOA, TBN depleted from 11.7 to 2.6 in 5K.
 
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I understand the rational of higher quality base stocks but now a days companies blend things so precisely of group 3+ 4 and 5 so well does your engine know the difference? The additives to me make sense. Different additive packs can burn off differently causing different issues on different engines. Some engines are just more prone or sensitive by design. If I were to use a non VW approved oil would be redline without a doubt. Since my car is under warranty and VAG group seems A N A L about the oil you use then I probably will stick to 504. I'm not sure why the guy says 504 cause oil usage issues. Mine hasn't dropped past where I filled it almost 3k miles ago. That argument is subjective. Well all of this can be "subjective". Jeff
 
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there. What are all you guys thinking on this? Jeff
I think I proved out ESP 504 by UOA when it first came out, and it's a 5k oil and no more due to tbn retention.
I think it is def. 5K in CA. However, I would like to see several UOA before making such conclusion. Each state has it's own blend of gas. It looks like here in CO TBN tend to deplete pretty fast. In my M1 0W40 UOA, TBN depleted from 11.7 to 2.6 in 5K.
The blend of oxygenates in gas have little to do with it. Sulfur perhaps, and there still is an EPA spec, so do the math and you can correlate.
 
If anything this subject is interesting. I think folks that have DI engines are always going to be curious about what can help reduce the valve deposit issues. Seems all major makers have some kind of issues, how they deal with them may be different, but its an on going problem. I do know VW and I am sure other companies do to, they have a coating on the valve neck that is supposed to help with the reduction of formation of carbon. This patent by VAG Group is on the first page of this topic. That is old news right? Then we talk about gasoline. Many feel that gas quality or the detergents in gas make no difference due to the fuel delivery type. I disagree with this. Why? Just gut feeling I guess. I think how the EGR system and PCV systems work on these cars and how things get recirculated. I mean the burn rate of the fuel in the cylinder even with DI is what 70% efficiency? So where does the remaining 30% go? It gets recirculated. I believe that those vapors can indeed help with the valve issues. May be very very slight, but I think using a top tier fuel will help in the long haul. Again, cant prove it, but in theory it makes sense. Oil. This is a very touchy subject as is most things. Talk about Religion, politics or Oil haha and you will ALWAYS get opinions. That is what makes this website so great though. The vast knowledge and experience that everyone shares. I do believe oil quality does indeed play a role as well. Weather you can say a group 4 or 5 oil will be better than a 3+ is so subjective. VISOM and PURE+ Technologies have taken Group 3+ products and made them SO GOOD that to say Group 4 and 5 are Superior in this day and age? I think may be a stretch. Like anything, the sum of the parts is what makes things great. You can put a MERC badge on a Pinto, but you still have a Pinto. Know what I mean? Its what makes the oil up, the combination of all its ingredients is what makes it a great oil. Finding the one you like at the price you are willing to pay, the availability and results you are looking for, often take many trials. Everyone has their own experiences and tails to tell. What I find is great oil, is somebody's worst nightmare. I know I have bored guys on these forums with repetitious and redundant issues, I know QP on here I have irritated him many times, haha, but I am glad people like QP and others are here. They help put you in perspective and keep things real. So keep the info coming, post whatever info you can find on DI stuff, the AudiZone bit I think is very interesting. Keep the info coming.... Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
I enjoy reading these thought-provoking threads even though I rarely participate in them.
Well I'm glad you did thumbsup Jeff
 
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