VSA on/off driving experience

[rjundi]

I guess some people like the track to be the street unfortunately. If your VSA is coming on a lot in everyday driving street something is wrong with the nut behind the wheel.

I get it on the track or difficult road conditions where these systems become a hindrance.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Actually at a Skip Barber event I attended they taught me that you can use the stability control system to be a better driver. By learning to drive smoothly and NOT actuate the system you could go faster around the course even with the system on.

One of the best things about my aftermarket tune is the way it pushed back the thresholds of intervention. Most stability control systems do NOT go completely off when you push the disable button, they simply move the threshold further away.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Actually at a Skip Barber event I attended they taught me that you can use the stability control system to be a better driver. By learning to drive smoothly and NOT actuate the system you could go faster around the course even with the system on.

One of the best things about my aftermarket tune is the way it pushed back the thresholds of intervention. Most stability control systems do NOT go completely off when you push the disable button, they simply move the threshold further away.



Interesting Steve

Mine goes completely off. I could wrap the car around a tree and it wouldn't intervene

 

[rslifkin]

I'm with Steve that it can be used as a tool to improve your driving, provided the system isn't too intrusive. However, in rain or snow, I'd rather not have it. While yes, it can probably react faster than I can, it may react differently than I will, so the combined reactions can lead to over-correcting, where my reaction alone would have been fine (or the computer's reaction alone, but I wouldn't just sit there and let it fix things).

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Actually at a Skip Barber event I attended they taught me that you can use the stability control system to be a better driver. By learning to drive smoothly and NOT actuate the system you could go faster around the course even with the system on.

One of the best things about my aftermarket tune is the way it pushed back the thresholds of intervention. Most stability control systems do NOT go completely off when you push the disable button, they simply move the threshold further away.

Exactly right (unless you have something like a GT-R where it's actually a driver enhancement).
Honda's system turns off completely (except ABS) however systems by VW and some others will not.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
I'm with Steve that it can be used as a tool to improve your driving, provided the system isn't too intrusive. However, in rain or snow, I'd rather not have it. While yes, it can probably react faster than I can, it may react differently than I will, so the combined reactions can lead to over-correcting, where my reaction alone would have been fine (or the computer's reaction alone, but I wouldn't just sit there and let it fix things).

This is very misguided. Again, the system is monitoring several parameters that are DIRECTLY based on YOUR input every 5-10 nanoseconds, 0.0000000055s (granted total system reaction time isn't that fast), and making calculations based on that. You are responsible for the steering angle and throttle position so the algorithm always takes your input into account when determining the method and degree of correction needed (reduce throttle W% for X milliseconds, apply Y brake for Z milliseconds, or both). So if you begin to slide it is absolutely and instantly working with your inputs and it would be mighty foolish, not to mention counter-intuitive, to turn it off when road conditions are the most dangerous/challenging.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Steve said something a while ago about these new 6-, 7-, and 8-speed transmissions and I think it applies to driving with VSA-type systems as well. You used to be able to control your transmission with the throttle. You could induce an upshift by letting up on the gas, then power back down when it upshifts. Steve made the comment, and I agree with it completely, that these newer transmissions react best to a steady foot. They don't seem to respond well to you trying to "drive around" the logic in the software. Simply give it the throttle you want and let the software handle it.

I find this to be the case with stability control systems as well. I feel that they're less effective when drivers try to "drive around" the logic. As one who grew up with old school RWD vehicles, I can completely sympathize with those who would rather drive the car than let the car sort out all the sensor inputs, but after owning multiple vehicles with stability control systems (the first really good one I had was a Cadillac with StabiliTrak), they seem to work the best when you tell it where you want to go (with the wheel) and how fast you want to get there (with the throttle) and let it get you there.

There is obviously still a measure of skill and caution needed when conditions are poor, but modern vehicles are remarkably capable of using sensor inputs and brake system outputs to keep the car on the intended line.

For better or for worse...

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
...

I find this to be the case with stability control systems as well. I feel that they're less effective when drivers try to "drive around" the logic. As one who grew up with old school RWD vehicles, I can completely sympathize with those who would rather drive the car than let the car sort out all the sensor inputs, but after owning multiple vehicles with stability control systems (the first really good one I had was a Cadillac with StabiliTrak), they seem to work the best when you tell it where you want to go (with the wheel) and how fast you want to get there (with the throttle) and let it get you there.

There is obviously still a measure of skill and caution needed when conditions are poor, but modern vehicles are remarkably capable of using sensor inputs and brake system outputs to keep the car on the intended line.

For better or for worse...

You're correct about when these systems work best however it is nearly impossible to drive around them and/or have double or over-correction. Even though 180MHz seems slow by modern computing standards it is clocking data in and out at 0.0000000055s where the blink of a human eye is 0.3300000000s and while the total system reaction time is slower than the 5.5nS it's still way faster than anything a human can process so the system works with your inputs faster than you know it is to make sure output is always and instantly what is needed based on your voluntary correction and the car's involuntary movement.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: rjundi
I guess some people like the track to be the street unfortunately. If your VSA is coming on a lot in everyday driving street something is wrong with the nut behind the wheel.

I get it on the track or difficult road conditions where these systems become a hindrance.


It's called risk management. It's a skill that some of us have. When combined with training, practice, and experience with high performance driving it allows some of us to fully enjoy our vehicles safely on the street. Choose the right vehicle and you can have the time of your life without breaking the speed limit.

The light on my dash flashes at least once every time I get behind the wheel, either due to the traction control or stability control. It doesn't help that my car has enough horsepower to break the tires loose in second gear and I like the noises my car makes at full tilt.

The nut behind the wheel is plenty tight and knows when it's not appropriate to drive so aggressively. Maybe you didn't know this, but it is possible to drive your car hard on the street without endangering others. Insisting otherwise simply because you never bothered to learn proper car control skills is insulting to those of us who are passionate about driving.

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: SLCraig
I always turn the VSA off in my SI.
It's just part of my startup routine.
I guess I am old school and I just want to drive my car, not let it drive me. I don't like how everything thesedays is a driving nanny. If people actually were properly trained to drive in all conditions, you wouldn't need all this silly wizardry..

If the FIA would allow it's use on F1 cars, the teams would. Are F1 drivers not properly trained? The computer can react way quicker than the best drivers in the world, but somehow, you think it's silly wizardry.

I've autoX'd a Z06 Vette. It had 3 settings. on, sport, and off. My best times were in sport mode. With the VSA in full on, the computer intervened too soon, and slowed the car. When it was off, the car moved too much, and I wasn't able to get the power down quickly enough. In sport mode, it would let the car slide, and spin the tires some, but it would intervene if it got to bad. With the help of the computer, I was able to go quicker.

Driving on the street, I would leave it on all the time. I'd feel pretty foolish if I crashed a car with VSA off knowing it might have prevented me losing control.

 

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
This is very misguided. Again, the system is monitoring several parameters that are DIRECTLY based on YOUR input every 5-10 nanoseconds, 0.0000000055s (granted total system reaction time isn't that fast), and making calculations based on that. You are responsible for the steering angle and throttle position so the algorithm always takes your input into account when determining the method and degree of correction needed (reduce throttle W% for X milliseconds, apply Y brake for Z milliseconds, or both). So if you begin to slide it is absolutely and instantly working with your inputs and it would be mighty foolish, not to mention counter-intuitive, to turn it off when road conditions are the most dangerous/challenging.


Plenty of these systems do control the throttle. Also, even if it doesn't, leaving me in control of half the picture and the car in control of the rest makes it much harder to react properly from my perspective.

In addition, there's the issue of the system intervening unexpectedly. I've seen the results of this firsthand (although I was a passenger at the time). Take a BRZ / FRS and a wet road. Kick the tail out a bit around a turn without remembering to turn down / off the stability control. If you spin the tires a little too much through the slide, the computer will suddenly cut a bunch of throttle as you're counter-steering. This leads to the tail snapping back in violently and then back out the other direction.

I've also seen plenty of cars get stuck in the snow due to traction / stability control. The system won't let you spin the tires enough at times (just keeps cutting throttle) or starts braking if you spin a tire or slide a little, which can greatly hinder forward progress in deep snow.

These systems do make up for a good bit of driver incompetence, however, many of them aren't implemented well enough to be helpful to a good driver under a lot of conditions.

I'm guessing you also think it's dangerous that I drive my Jeep (no traction or stability control at all) around in a few inches of snow without putting it in 4wd. As long as the guy behind the wheel knows what they're doing, turning off the assists is perfectly fine.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: whip
If the FIA would allow it's use on F1 cars, the teams would. Are F1 drivers not properly trained? The computer can react way quicker than the best drivers in the world, but somehow, you think it's silly wizardry.

I've autoX'd a Z06 Vette. It had 3 settings. on, sport, and off. My best times were in sport mode. With the VSA in full on, the computer intervened too soon, and slowed the car. When it was off, the car moved too much, and I wasn't able to get the power down quickly enough. In sport mode, it would let the car slide, and spin the tires some, but it would intervene if it got to bad. With the help of the computer, I was able to go quicker.

Driving on the street, I would leave it on all the time. I'd feel pretty foolish if I crashed a car with VSA off knowing it might have prevented me losing control.


This is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. F1 "cars" aren't really cars, they're very purpose built competition machines. The electronics on those cars aren't built for safety, if they were allowed they would be designed to give the driver a competitive advantage. These systems on street legal cars tend to be designed for safety first.

Also, I've been told that the system on the Corvette is actually pretty good. On more pedestrian vehicles or even sporty versions of those, dealing with stability control can be extremely frustrating. When I sell my GTI my #1 requirement in a vehicle will be fully defeatable stability control, preferably with an option for a "sport" mode similar to what you'd find on a Corvette.

There is something to be said for simply wanting to enjoy the pure mechanical handling of a car. I think it's fun to feel out a vehicle and master it, especially at a place like an autocross.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Originally Posted By: gofast182
This is very misguided. Again, the system is monitoring several parameters that are DIRECTLY based on YOUR input every 5-10 nanoseconds, 0.0000000055s (granted total system reaction time isn't that fast), and making calculations based on that. You are responsible for the steering angle and throttle position so the algorithm always takes your input into account when determining the method and degree of correction needed (reduce throttle W% for X milliseconds, apply Y brake for Z milliseconds, or both). So if you begin to slide it is absolutely and instantly working with your inputs and it would be mighty foolish, not to mention counter-intuitive, to turn it off when road conditions are the most dangerous/challenging.


Plenty of these systems do control the throttle. Also, even if it doesn't, leaving me in control of half the picture and the car in control of the rest makes it much harder to react properly from my perspective.

In addition, there's the issue of the system intervening unexpectedly. I've seen the results of this firsthand (although I was a passenger at the time). Take a BRZ / FRS and a wet road. Kick the tail out a bit around a turn without remembering to turn down / off the stability control. If you spin the tires a little too much through the slide, the computer will suddenly cut a bunch of throttle as you're counter-steering. This leads to the tail snapping back in violently and then back out the other direction.

I've also seen plenty of cars get stuck in the snow due to traction / stability control. The system won't let you spin the tires enough at times (just keeps cutting throttle) or starts braking if you spin a tire or slide a little, which can greatly hinder forward progress in deep snow.

These systems do make up for a good bit of driver incompetence, however, many of them aren't implemented well enough to be helpful to a good driver under a lot of conditions.

I'm guessing you also think it's dangerous that I drive my Jeep (no traction or stability control at all) around in a few inches of snow without putting it in 4wd. As long as the guy behind the wheel knows what they're doing, turning off the assists is perfectly fine.

You make a couple good points but there's still a bunch of misguided [censored] in that response.
I can promise you your BRZ example had just as much, if not more, to do with driver input than the system causing an adverse effect. Go back and read my posts about the timing of how this stuff operates and the fact that it's using actual driver inputs faster than any human. I had a pretty good tank slapper on the track this summer, same thing happened but I didn't have VSA on but I was able to save a spin.
You do make a really good point, however, about being stuck in the snow. I've seen several people unnecessarily remain stuck because the system wasn't allowing ample power to the wheels. Turning the system off in that instance is perfectly fine because you need the power and if you're stuck you're not moving fast enough for it to matter.

 

[CharBaby]

Deffinately use the VSA in the foul weather!

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
...

I find this to be the case with stability control systems as well. I feel that they're less effective when drivers try to "drive around" the logic. As one who grew up with old school RWD vehicles, I can completely sympathize with those who would rather drive the car than let the car sort out all the sensor inputs, but after owning multiple vehicles with stability control systems (the first really good one I had was a Cadillac with StabiliTrak), they seem to work the best when you tell it where you want to go (with the wheel) and how fast you want to get there (with the throttle) and let it get you there.

There is obviously still a measure of skill and caution needed when conditions are poor, but modern vehicles are remarkably capable of using sensor inputs and brake system outputs to keep the car on the intended line.

For better or for worse...

You're correct about when these systems work best however it is nearly impossible to drive around them and/or have double or over-correction. Even though 180MHz seems slow by modern computing standards it is clocking data in and out at 0.0000000055s where the blink of a human eye is 0.3300000000s and while the total system reaction time is slower than the 5.5nS it's still way faster than anything a human can process so the system works with your inputs faster than you know it is to make sure output is always and instantly what is needed based on your voluntary correction and the car's involuntary movement.

I found my parents 06 CRV would do a simultaneous correction on turn 2 of my driveway, it would hit the brakes on the outside front tire just as I was unwinding the wheel countersteering, resulting in having to turn in again to compensate... I guess on a corner I do everyday that's gravel, I do know what's going to happen far in advance of the computer and that a slight 4 wheel drift is the fast way around the corner. I guess what's happening is that I'm not anticipating the correction, but I have anticipated the need to countersteer just based on my entry speed.
If I drove the CRV all the time I would do a bit of practice on wet and dry pavement to see what the VSA does and then learn to rely on it and not countersteer like I would in my old cars.

 

[glock19]

I think you guys are sort of missing the point of VSA. It's not to help a good driver drift or get tail happy in their performance vehicle. It's to keep the average daily driver safe from sliding. In a normal safe driving scenario the car is not going sideways and if it is something has gone wrong. Of course the car wants to cut power so you can slow down and regain control of the vehicle. Most people out their aren't going to be able to stay in the gas an execute a perfect drift once they get sideways and the car manufacturers know this. They simply want to slow the car down in a controlled manner so you can resume your daily commute.

I think it's great if you want to turn of VSA on your track car and go nuts but there's no reason to turn it off on the street if you're driving like a sane human being.

 

[youdontwannaknow]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I found my parents 06 CRV would do a simultaneous correction on turn 2 of my driveway, it would hit the brakes on the outside front tire just as I was unwinding the wheel countersteering,


does the vsa alert light come on the dash when this happens ?

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: youdontwannaknow
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I found my parents 06 CRV would do a simultaneous correction on turn 2 of my driveway, it would hit the brakes on the outside front tire just as I was unwinding the wheel countersteering,


does the vsa alert light come on the dash when this happens ?

Not sure about other mfrs. but in all VSA-equipped Honda vehicles, the light will blink on when the system is intervening (if it's not on, it's just monitoring).

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: youdontwannaknow
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I found my parents 06 CRV would do a simultaneous correction on turn 2 of my driveway, it would hit the brakes on the outside front tire just as I was unwinding the wheel countersteering,


does the vsa alert light come on the dash when this happens ?

I believe so, but I don't look much at the dash doing a 4 wheel drift! It does flash for sure when stomping on the gas and the sound of the ABS pump going off is quite distinctive.

 

[CBR.worm]

I frequently turn off the VDC on my G35 on the street. It is more fun. On the track I leave it on most of the time - and utilize it frequently. The only problem is when it is correcting something and you have to hit the brakes - that doesn't work so well.

On the BMW and the FX I rarely turn off the VDC or DSC. But anytime I am driving the G35 I pretty much act like an idiot. If I am in the G, I have no kids or wife with me...