Volt or Leaf? Ask someone who owns both...
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Originally Posted By: kb01
I'd be really curious to see what charging an electric overnight would be comparable to. For those of us who hate doing math, is it more or less than running a typical 1000 watt 220-volt electric heater for the same period of time?
Considerably more. What I read is that if you don't install a 220V "charging station" and instead just plug into a standard 15-amp, 120V outlet, the charge time is around 18 hours instead of 8 on the charging station. Doing the math for people who hate doing it themselves... 15amps times 120 volts times 18 hours is around 32 kilowatt hours. In contrast, a 1000 watt 220v heater for 18 hours is 18 kilowatt hours. Now most 220 volt heaters are actually around 3-4 kilowatts (you can do 1.5 kilowatts on a 120 volt circuit), so if that's what you're thinking of then a full charge of a Leaf would be a bit less than that.
At any rate, a full charge every night (which I know most e-car drivers wouldn't need) is comparable to running an electric furnace all night. Its potentially a very big dent in folks' electric bills, and if a significant percentage of the driving public goes pure electric the power generation infrastructure is nowhere near capable of handling it.
I'd be really curious to see what charging an electric overnight would be comparable to. For those of us who hate doing math, is it more or less than running a typical 1000 watt 220-volt electric heater for the same period of time?
Considerably more. What I read is that if you don't install a 220V "charging station" and instead just plug into a standard 15-amp, 120V outlet, the charge time is around 18 hours instead of 8 on the charging station. Doing the math for people who hate doing it themselves... 15amps times 120 volts times 18 hours is around 32 kilowatt hours. In contrast, a 1000 watt 220v heater for 18 hours is 18 kilowatt hours. Now most 220 volt heaters are actually around 3-4 kilowatts (you can do 1.5 kilowatts on a 120 volt circuit), so if that's what you're thinking of then a full charge of a Leaf would be a bit less than that.
At any rate, a full charge every night (which I know most e-car drivers wouldn't need) is comparable to running an electric furnace all night. Its potentially a very big dent in folks' electric bills, and if a significant percentage of the driving public goes pure electric the power generation infrastructure is nowhere near capable of handling it.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: kb01
I'd be really curious to see what charging an electric overnight would be comparable to. For those of us who hate doing math, is it more or less than running a typical 1000 watt 220-volt electric heater for the same period of time?
Considerably more. What I read is that if you don't install a 220V "charging station" and instead just plug into a standard 15-amp, 120V outlet, the charge time is around 18 hours instead of 8 on the charging station. Doing the math for people who hate doing it themselves... 15amps times 120 volts times 18 hours is around 32 kilowatt hours. In contrast, a 1000 watt 220v heater for 18 hours is 18 kilowatt hours. Now most 220 volt heaters are actually around 3-4 kilowatts (you can do 1.5 kilowatts on a 120 volt circuit), so if that's what you're thinking of then a full charge of a Leaf would be a bit less than that.
At any rate, a full charge every night (which I know most e-car drivers wouldn't need) is comparable to running an electric furnace all night. Its potentially a very big dent in folks' electric bills, and if a significant percentage of the driving public goes pure electric the power generation infrastructure is nowhere near capable of handling it.
So, by your math it takes 32 kWhr to replace 10 kWhr in the Volts battery?
I know that my rudimentary math in my previous post doesn't account for charger inefficiencies. But 32 kWhr to get 10 or 11 kWhr of energy in the battery???? I think you need to check your math.
At the average national cost of .12 cents per kWhr the Volt will cost about $1.20 to recharge to it's 16 kWhr maximum capacity. Assuming the battery is at 40% charge to begin with.
As I said before, in Michigan it would be even less, about .82 cents per re-charge. Or a person with a charging station can opt for a flat monthly fee for $40/month.
Originally Posted By: kb01
I'd be really curious to see what charging an electric overnight would be comparable to. For those of us who hate doing math, is it more or less than running a typical 1000 watt 220-volt electric heater for the same period of time?
Considerably more. What I read is that if you don't install a 220V "charging station" and instead just plug into a standard 15-amp, 120V outlet, the charge time is around 18 hours instead of 8 on the charging station. Doing the math for people who hate doing it themselves... 15amps times 120 volts times 18 hours is around 32 kilowatt hours. In contrast, a 1000 watt 220v heater for 18 hours is 18 kilowatt hours. Now most 220 volt heaters are actually around 3-4 kilowatts (you can do 1.5 kilowatts on a 120 volt circuit), so if that's what you're thinking of then a full charge of a Leaf would be a bit less than that.
At any rate, a full charge every night (which I know most e-car drivers wouldn't need) is comparable to running an electric furnace all night. Its potentially a very big dent in folks' electric bills, and if a significant percentage of the driving public goes pure electric the power generation infrastructure is nowhere near capable of handling it.
So, by your math it takes 32 kWhr to replace 10 kWhr in the Volts battery?
I know that my rudimentary math in my previous post doesn't account for charger inefficiencies. But 32 kWhr to get 10 or 11 kWhr of energy in the battery???? I think you need to check your math.
At the average national cost of .12 cents per kWhr the Volt will cost about $1.20 to recharge to it's 16 kWhr maximum capacity. Assuming the battery is at 40% charge to begin with.
As I said before, in Michigan it would be even less, about .82 cents per re-charge. Or a person with a charging station can opt for a flat monthly fee for $40/month.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
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The future is here, may as well get used to it
Who's future, this future is certainly not driven by the consumers or markets, so no, I'm not going to "get used to it" just because our government says so.
Heck, even car manufacturers don't see any logic behind the push for electric cars.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/03/bill-ford-sounds-ev-retreat/
Similar issues were raised by VW not too long ago.
Sure, car manufacturers will make electric cars in order to look green and stay with the trend, but as of now and near future they don't see electric cars being financially feasible to anyone.
The future is not known, and these two cars are not an indication of anything except our governments, media and general public’s stupidity and ignorance of other issues that electric cars create.
These are bizarre comments. No government forced this guy to buy these cars. Israel is using electric cars now. I see people here [censored] about the cost of gas, and paying for foreign oil, so here is a solution
Problem is price is high until the volumes go up the price will go down
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The future is here, may as well get used to it
Who's future, this future is certainly not driven by the consumers or markets, so no, I'm not going to "get used to it" just because our government says so.
Heck, even car manufacturers don't see any logic behind the push for electric cars.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/03/bill-ford-sounds-ev-retreat/
Similar issues were raised by VW not too long ago.
Sure, car manufacturers will make electric cars in order to look green and stay with the trend, but as of now and near future they don't see electric cars being financially feasible to anyone.
The future is not known, and these two cars are not an indication of anything except our governments, media and general public’s stupidity and ignorance of other issues that electric cars create.
These are bizarre comments. No government forced this guy to buy these cars. Israel is using electric cars now. I see people here [censored] about the cost of gas, and paying for foreign oil, so here is a solution
Problem is price is high until the volumes go up the price will go down
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
What was it that JP Morgan supposedly said to Tesla all those years ago...
"But, where do we put the meter?"
Yeah if we were able to convert to electric cars tomorrow the big market speculators would move toward having electric rates and the fuels needed to produce electric jacked up in no time lol.
What was it that JP Morgan supposedly said to Tesla all those years ago...
"But, where do we put the meter?"
Yeah if we were able to convert to electric cars tomorrow the big market speculators would move toward having electric rates and the fuels needed to produce electric jacked up in no time lol.
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These are bizarre comments. No government forced this guy to buy these cars. Israel is using electric cars now. I see people here [censored] about the cost of gas, and paying for foreign oil, so here is a solution
Right, no government forced this guy or any other guy/gal to but electric car, SO WHY AM I FORCED TO SUBSIDIZE THEIR CARS via tax breaks??? And why am I, you and any other taxpayer forced to subsidize battery research and production, why is it that billions of taxpayer dollars are spent on these "projects" without a shred of proof that this technology is viable and sustainable??? And my comments are bizarre???
Nothing to see here, move along, electric car will free us for those "evil" Iraqis
Yeah, like they force us to buy their oil
These are bizarre comments. No government forced this guy to buy these cars. Israel is using electric cars now. I see people here [censored] about the cost of gas, and paying for foreign oil, so here is a solution
Right, no government forced this guy or any other guy/gal to but electric car, SO WHY AM I FORCED TO SUBSIDIZE THEIR CARS via tax breaks??? And why am I, you and any other taxpayer forced to subsidize battery research and production, why is it that billions of taxpayer dollars are spent on these "projects" without a shred of proof that this technology is viable and sustainable??? And my comments are bizarre???
Nothing to see here, move along, electric car will free us for those "evil" Iraqis
Do all the costs our government realizes in keeping a lid on the Middle East count as a "forced subsidy"? If we are willing/forced to spend trillions to defend the oil fields in foreign lands...I have no problem with spending billions on developing new tech here at home...whatever that may be.
Originally Posted By: Torino
Ah yes. How long will it be before the various state agencies begin to require a separate meter for the car? This to apply a road use tax. Fasten your safety belts. John--Las Vegas.
If this electric thing takes off, you better believe they will do something to tax them. I don't see a chance of it taking off until the range improves and charging time dramatically decreases.
One thing a lot of people, especially in the media, don't talk about is that gasoline taxes average $0.481 per gallon, and range from anywhere between $0.35 and $0.661 per gallon depending on the state. Diesel taxes are even higher. If people start running alternative fuels, you better believe the government is going to get a piece of the action. http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/
Also, more infrastructure will have to be built - as far as I know, many utilities are still running close to their limited capacity at certain times of the year. Increased use of electricity will drive the rates up even without tax hikes, and we will end up in the same place we are now.
Not to mention that a lot of electricity is still generated by coal and other non-renewable sources.
Ah yes. How long will it be before the various state agencies begin to require a separate meter for the car? This to apply a road use tax. Fasten your safety belts. John--Las Vegas.
If this electric thing takes off, you better believe they will do something to tax them. I don't see a chance of it taking off until the range improves and charging time dramatically decreases.
One thing a lot of people, especially in the media, don't talk about is that gasoline taxes average $0.481 per gallon, and range from anywhere between $0.35 and $0.661 per gallon depending on the state. Diesel taxes are even higher. If people start running alternative fuels, you better believe the government is going to get a piece of the action. http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/
Also, more infrastructure will have to be built - as far as I know, many utilities are still running close to their limited capacity at certain times of the year. Increased use of electricity will drive the rates up even without tax hikes, and we will end up in the same place we are now.
Not to mention that a lot of electricity is still generated by coal and other non-renewable sources.
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Sure, but I need gas and oil in my everyday life, I certainly don't need electric cars, and since our government locked us out of our own oil, well not Alberta oil at least, then we really have no choice.
Someone already mentioned that our fight for oil independence is nothing but a farce, it seems that everything is done to make us more dependant on foreign oil, foreign goods etc.
Did you notice that all those batteries will be produced by China? So we will shift our dependence from one place to another and neither of them like us.
Someone already mentioned that our fight for oil independence is nothing but a farce, it seems that everything is done to make us more dependant on foreign oil, foreign goods etc.
Did you notice that all those batteries will be produced by China? So we will shift our dependence from one place to another and neither of them like us.
IDK about the GM batteries...but I do know that Ford is building or plans to build a large portion of their battery packs in house. They are hiring and retro fitting their Rawsonville plant for that express purpose.
I'll look into the Volt battery packs as well...I do not recall they were sourced from China.
I'll look into the Volt battery packs as well...I do not recall they were sourced from China.
Well, guess what...GM is assembling their packs here in Michigan as well. I'm sure the source of components reads like a UN guest list, looks like the individual cells are sourced from Korea. But at least the manpower for final assembly is taking place here in Brownstown, MI.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/chevrolet-volt-battery-production/#
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/chevrolet-volt-battery-production/#
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
IDK about the GM batteries...but I do know that Ford is building or plans to build a large portion of their battery packs in house. They are hiring and retro fitting their Rawsonville plant for that express purpose.
I'll look into the Volt battery packs as well...I do not recall they were sourced from China.
Note that I said "will be..." Right now I wouldn't be surprised if GM and Ford made their batteries here since they took the Retooling grants from government, which were aimed specifically at research and production of electric/hybrid cars, that includes batteries.
Also, China currently provides something like 90% of world's rare earth metal production, so Ford and GM are still dependant on China in that regard.
But if the demand in production of batteries increases and especially if other manufacturers use China as their battery supplier, GM, Ford and Chrysler will have no choice but to go to China.
I could understand this whole battery technology thing if US was positioning itself as the major developer and producer of these batteries, this at least would create an industry and get some jobs here, but I do not see anything that would confirm this.
IDK about the GM batteries...but I do know that Ford is building or plans to build a large portion of their battery packs in house. They are hiring and retro fitting their Rawsonville plant for that express purpose.
I'll look into the Volt battery packs as well...I do not recall they were sourced from China.
Note that I said "will be..." Right now I wouldn't be surprised if GM and Ford made their batteries here since they took the Retooling grants from government, which were aimed specifically at research and production of electric/hybrid cars, that includes batteries.
Also, China currently provides something like 90% of world's rare earth metal production, so Ford and GM are still dependant on China in that regard.
But if the demand in production of batteries increases and especially if other manufacturers use China as their battery supplier, GM, Ford and Chrysler will have no choice but to go to China.
I could understand this whole battery technology thing if US was positioning itself as the major developer and producer of these batteries, this at least would create an industry and get some jobs here, but I do not see anything that would confirm this.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
IDK about the GM batteries...but I do know that Ford is building or plans to build a large portion of their battery packs in house. They are hiring and retro fitting their Rawsonville plant for that express purpose.
I'll look into the Volt battery packs as well...I do not recall they were sourced from China.
I could understand this whole battery technology thing if US was positioning itself as the major developer and producer of these batteries, this at least would create an industry and get some jobs here, but I do not see anything that would confirm this.
Whether they will succeed or not is open to discussion...but that is precisely what a lot of people in this State think they are trying to do. GM built a research center near their Warren Tech center, see link below. Ford has made similar investments and is working closely with the UofM and MIT. A123 systems is building a new plant in Romulus.
http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/...pr/0412_battery
As for the grants, you do realize that they are only seed money grants right? For every dollar that Ford or GM get from the Feds they are investing a much larger percentage of their own money.
FWIW, I view all this as more of a stop gap rather than a final solution. As research and improvements come on line, batteries may prove to be a viable solution, but without the research we would never know either way.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
IDK about the GM batteries...but I do know that Ford is building or plans to build a large portion of their battery packs in house. They are hiring and retro fitting their Rawsonville plant for that express purpose.
I'll look into the Volt battery packs as well...I do not recall they were sourced from China.
I could understand this whole battery technology thing if US was positioning itself as the major developer and producer of these batteries, this at least would create an industry and get some jobs here, but I do not see anything that would confirm this.
Whether they will succeed or not is open to discussion...but that is precisely what a lot of people in this State think they are trying to do. GM built a research center near their Warren Tech center, see link below. Ford has made similar investments and is working closely with the UofM and MIT. A123 systems is building a new plant in Romulus.
http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/...pr/0412_battery
As for the grants, you do realize that they are only seed money grants right? For every dollar that Ford or GM get from the Feds they are investing a much larger percentage of their own money.
FWIW, I view all this as more of a stop gap rather than a final solution. As research and improvements come on line, batteries may prove to be a viable solution, but without the research we would never know either way.
Quick solution to the question of road use taxes...dump all excise taxes on fuel, create toll roads, collect fees to fund road building and maintenance.
Make vehicle registration fees higher as well.
Possible you could also have annual vehicle registration renewal, where you are charged per mile from the previous years registration odometer reading. If that amounted to hundreds of dollars, you could elect to have the amount deducted from your state income tax return refund.
Make vehicle registration fees higher as well.
Possible you could also have annual vehicle registration renewal, where you are charged per mile from the previous years registration odometer reading. If that amounted to hundreds of dollars, you could elect to have the amount deducted from your state income tax return refund.
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FWIW, I view all this as more of a stop gap rather than a final solution. As research and improvements come on line, batteries may prove to be a viable solution, but without the research we would never know either way.
Totally agree, but what bothers me is how the government, greenies and media got people convinced that THIS IS THE SOLUTION.
At this stage it is really unclear, and if Ford doubts this technology, remember they got about $6b in DOE Retooling grants (not a small chunk of money) and they are the ones doing the research, not the government, then that tells me that something is not right.
I agree that some research should be done, but let’s not put all of our eggs in one basket and let’s not get too crazy with throwing money at this thing because we still have plenty of oil and other technologies may be more viable.
FWIW, I view all this as more of a stop gap rather than a final solution. As research and improvements come on line, batteries may prove to be a viable solution, but without the research we would never know either way.
Totally agree, but what bothers me is how the government, greenies and media got people convinced that THIS IS THE SOLUTION.
At this stage it is really unclear, and if Ford doubts this technology, remember they got about $6b in DOE Retooling grants (not a small chunk of money) and they are the ones doing the research, not the government, then that tells me that something is not right.
I agree that some research should be done, but let’s not put all of our eggs in one basket and let’s not get too crazy with throwing money at this thing because we still have plenty of oil and other technologies may be more viable.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Quote:
FWIW, I view all this as more of a stop gap rather than a final solution. As research and improvements come on line, batteries may prove to be a viable solution, but without the research we would never know either way.
Totally agree, but what bothers me is how the government, greenies and media got people convinced that THIS IS THE SOLUTION.
At this stage it is really unclear, and if Ford doubts this technology, remember they got about $6b in DOE Retooling grants (not a small chunk of money) and they are the ones doing the research, not the government, then that tells me that something is not right.
I agree that some research should be done, but let’s not put all of our eggs in one basket and let’s not get too crazy with throwing money at this thing because we still have plenty of oil and other technologies may be more viable.
Agreed, and don't forget, beyond the hyperbole coming out of Washington, and ignoring the current favorite topic(electric cars). There is still all kinds of reseach going on at Ford and GM into alternatives. Bill Fords recent speech regarding Hydrogen and biofuels is more a reflection of the reality behind the scenes, than it is a pronouncement of any new direction. The general concensus has and continues to be that the real answer is still out there somewhere.
Quote:
FWIW, I view all this as more of a stop gap rather than a final solution. As research and improvements come on line, batteries may prove to be a viable solution, but without the research we would never know either way.
Totally agree, but what bothers me is how the government, greenies and media got people convinced that THIS IS THE SOLUTION.
At this stage it is really unclear, and if Ford doubts this technology, remember they got about $6b in DOE Retooling grants (not a small chunk of money) and they are the ones doing the research, not the government, then that tells me that something is not right.
I agree that some research should be done, but let’s not put all of our eggs in one basket and let’s not get too crazy with throwing money at this thing because we still have plenty of oil and other technologies may be more viable.
Agreed, and don't forget, beyond the hyperbole coming out of Washington, and ignoring the current favorite topic(electric cars). There is still all kinds of reseach going on at Ford and GM into alternatives. Bill Fords recent speech regarding Hydrogen and biofuels is more a reflection of the reality behind the scenes, than it is a pronouncement of any new direction. The general concensus has and continues to be that the real answer is still out there somewhere.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
So, by your math it takes 32 kWhr to replace 10 kWhr in the Volts battery?
I know that my rudimentary math in my previous post doesn't account for charger inefficiencies. But 32 kWhr to get 10 or 11 kWhr of energy in the battery???? I think you need to check your math.
The math is right, the assumption (memory) about how many hours it takes may be wrong. Plus it was for an all-electric, not the Volt, which has a bigger battery pack than 11 kWh.
Also, battery charging efficiency isn't as high as a lot of people think. 60% efficiency is darned good. That's why batteries get so hot when you charge them, and why slow-charging is more efficient than fast-charging. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it took 15+ kWh actual power to charge the 11 kWh storage battery of the Volt.
So, by your math it takes 32 kWhr to replace 10 kWhr in the Volts battery?
I know that my rudimentary math in my previous post doesn't account for charger inefficiencies. But 32 kWhr to get 10 or 11 kWhr of energy in the battery???? I think you need to check your math.
The math is right, the assumption (memory) about how many hours it takes may be wrong. Plus it was for an all-electric, not the Volt, which has a bigger battery pack than 11 kWh.
Also, battery charging efficiency isn't as high as a lot of people think. 60% efficiency is darned good. That's why batteries get so hot when you charge them, and why slow-charging is more efficient than fast-charging. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it took 15+ kWh actual power to charge the 11 kWh storage battery of the Volt.
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
How many miles will it go when I got the AC on full blast in these 110 degree summers here in Oklahoma????
More than you might think, Denso and Sanden have been working on making electric car A/C pretty efficient.
And the Volt really is an entirely new ballgame, it ups the ante on the Toyota hybrid technology significantly. By totally decoupling the gasoline engine from the drivetrain, it can run an even smaller gas engine at absolute peak efficiency any time its running, which is why in gas engine mode it still gets 60+ mpg instead of just the mid 40s.
How many miles will it go when I got the AC on full blast in these 110 degree summers here in Oklahoma????
More than you might think, Denso and Sanden have been working on making electric car A/C pretty efficient.
And the Volt really is an entirely new ballgame, it ups the ante on the Toyota hybrid technology significantly. By totally decoupling the gasoline engine from the drivetrain, it can run an even smaller gas engine at absolute peak efficiency any time its running, which is why in gas engine mode it still gets 60+ mpg instead of just the mid 40s.
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