Viscosity Index Improvers are not bad.

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: buster
^ Exactly.

Yep, I want a decent VI, but it's not the spec that I'll chase in isolation from all others.

 

[DeepFriar]

I confess to being scientifically dumber than a post in this area and basically grew up in the thicker is better school (true of the dinosaurs that were around then too). I used a 0W40 with a VI of 190 (just looked it up and wondered "how" they might accomplish this). It appears to contribute to a NOACK of 9 where others in the lineup look to average about 6. Can someone knowledgeable comment on when is too much, too much? I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to ask.
Will add the source data:

http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Motor Oil PDS 5-13.pdf

 

[OVERKILL]

9 is still quite low (and below the Mercedes limit of 10%), particularly for a 0w-xx lubricant.

If you want to compare, go to the PQIA site and check out the NOACK on a lot of the "normal" oils.

 

[DeepFriar]

I see your point. Frankly the 190 number just caught me by surprise and wondered what the negatives were, NOACK possibly being one. Has PQIA gone out of business? Unless I am looking at it wrong the last data point is April 2013.
June 2013 for a conventional oil.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I see your point. Frankly the 190 number just caught me by surprise and wondered what the negatives were, NOACK possibly being one. Has PQIA gone out of business? Unless I am looking at it wrong the last data point is April 2013.


Last update was July 2nd, 2015.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/

One of the oils in that update is SuperTech 5w-30, with a Noack of 14.1%

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I confess to being scientifically dumber than a post in this area and basically grew up in the thicker is better school (true of the dinosaurs that were around then too). I used a 0W40 with a VI of 190 (just looked it up and wondered "how" they might accomplish this). It appears to contribute to a NOACK of 9 where others in the lineup look to average about 6. Can someone knowledgeable comment on when is too much, too much? I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to ask.
Will add the source data:

http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Motor Oil PDS 5-13.pdf


There are mostly just 2 things to consider: The HTHS at a hot 150 degC, and how well the oil flows when "cold". An engine running at normal temperature only sees the HTHS. An engine starting up in cold weather sees a bunch of thick honey.

Therefore, I believe you can never have too much VI, due to the fact that you want an oil that is reasonably not too thick on cold starts, while nailing the HTHS target hot.

People disagree here on what's "reasonable". Every oil is too thick at, say, 20 degF and under. Current VM technology can't make the oil be around ~100 cSt where I would like it to be when at 20 degF, its always too thick when the mercury drops below freezing.

The other problem is that the more VM chemicals you blend in, the more risk you have of destroying the viscosity curves set up when the oil was new, since this stuff tends to break up with a lot of heat and pressure. Chemical problems. Some worse than others, but when you use Redline, I presume the POE basestock is very stable over time not much VM is needed there, so you should be good to go longer.

As far as NOACK, the lower the better. Less than about 10% is considered plenty good.

 

[ExMachina]

.... error duplicate...

 

[DeepFriar]

What is the URL for the latest updates, I must be looking at it wrong? Sorry for the trub.

 

[ExMachina]

http://pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html
has a bunch of NOACKs to read across. Pennz Ultra's went up.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina

There are mostly just 2 things to consider: The HTHS at a hot 150 degC, and how well the oil flows when "cold". An engine running at normal temperature only sees the HTHS. An engine starting up in cold weather sees a bunch of thick honey.

Therefore, I believe you can never have too much VI, due to the fact that you want an oil that is reasonably not too thick on cold starts, while nailing the HTHS target hot.

People disagree here on what's "reasonable". Every oil is too thick at, say, 20 degF and under. Current VM technology can't make the oil be around ~100 cSt where I would like it to be when at 20 degF, its always too thick when the mercury drops below freezing.

The other problem is that the more VM chemicals you blend in, the more risk you have of destroying the viscosity curves set up when the oil was new, since this stuff tends to break up with a lot of heat and pressure. Chemical problems. Some worse than others,


Thanks much, that does help a lot. Appreciate.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to ask.

Red Line certainly does a fine job. Of course, the products have a price to match. A good part of Red Line's success in their lubes is that they don't skimp on base stocks. In that way, you get what you pay for. On the other hand, much of what they sell is massive overkill for average applications.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to ask.

Red Line certainly does a fine job. Of course, the products have a price to match. A good part of Red Line's success in their lubes is that they don't skimp on base stocks. In that way, you get what you pay for. On the other hand, much of what they sell is massive overkill for average applications.


I will assume from your choice of quote your inference is that this was indeed the wrong place to ask my question about VII. OK, I accept that but look, I'm not here to defend Redline or any other product. I'm not an evangelist and I don't disagree with your cost benefit analysis for most uses. I do find it odd, however, that you find it useful to left-handedly attack a decision to buy the stuff. What you think about what I buy, well.... I'm all about overkill and proudly so.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar

I will assume from your choice of quote your inference is that this was indeed the wrong place to ask my question about VII. OK, I accept that but look, I'm not here to defend Redline or any other product. I'm not an evangelist and I don't disagree with your cost benefit analysis for most uses. I do find it odd, however, that you find it useful to left-handedly attack a decision to buy the stuff. What you think about what I buy, well.... I'm all about overkill and proudly so.

Oil itself may cost around $70 for a change if its Redline, or $30 if its M1. A lot of people don't think its a lot of money. Its not compared to the cost of the engine. People on these forums do like to penny pinch, and nothing wrong with that if you're into it. There is something appealing about using a POE oil like Redline as its different than a PAO or GroupIII for sure, like running a cool trick part. I've never seen evidence to show that Redline is any better on UOAs than other oils though, but I may not know what it does for deposits, maybe its better there.

 

[DeepFriar]

LOL. Love you guys.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I will assume from your choice of quote your inference is that this was indeed the wrong place to ask my question about VII.

No, I quoted that because it was convenient and your question was completely valid and well placed. And don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking your decision to buy the product. As I said, there's little question, at least in my mind, that Red Line makes very fine products. And I don't have a lot of problem with paying for very fine products. There are plenty of uses for Red Line products. Heck, I use their fuel system cleaner because it's one of the most cost effective products out there in this market.

All I was saying is that their products are good, in fact too good for most applications. That doesn't mean there's no benefit at all or it's not a great product or that it isn't one heck of a good idea in certain applications. Wanting to support a smaller company is as valid a reason as wanting a high end product, or wanting something different, or wanting the "best," or whatever.

My perspective is this, to clarify what I meant, which was not to attack. Look at my old F-150. It's got a recently rebuilt engine. I can get synthetics at a decent price, like the product in my G37. The F-150's engine is rebuilt and no longer leaks. I still, however, cringe at the thought of putting a synthetic in it, even though I can get some synthetics at conventional type prices and it's not going to end up leaking all over my driveway. Besides, I can't say I've never went overkill on things, either.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar

I will assume from your choice of quote your inference is that this was indeed the wrong place to ask my question about VII. OK, I accept that but look, I'm not here to defend Redline or any other product. I'm not an evangelist and I don't disagree with your cost benefit analysis for most uses. I do find it odd, however, that you find it useful to left-handedly attack a decision to buy the stuff. What you think about what I buy, well.... I'm all about overkill and proudly so.

Oil itself may cost around $70 for a change if its Redline, or $30 if its M1. A lot of people don't think its a lot of money. Its not compared to the cost of the engine. People on these forums do like to penny pinch, and nothing wrong with that if you're into it. There is something appealing about using a POE oil like Redline as its different than a PAO or GroupIII for sure, like running a cool trick part. I've never seen evidence to show that Redline is any better on UOAs than other oils though, but I may not know what it does for deposits, maybe its better there.



Its not exactly penny pinching

 

[Garak]

For sure. For a seldom driven vehicle, it might not matter. For a daily driver, it probably wouldn't, either. But, one isn't going to run a fleet of taxis on a boutique oil. And fleets do tend to accumulate a lot of miles while using the basic oil that meets specifications, and sometimes not even that.

 

[Oil Changer]

If it pumps, it's not too thick. An 15W or 20W-XX is not too thick at 20F; it will pump.


Originally Posted By: ExMachina
People disagree here on what's "reasonable". Every oil is too thick at, say, 20 degF and under. Current VM technology can't make the oil be around ~100 cSt where I would like it to be when at 20 degF, its always too thick when the mercury drops below freezing.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I thought that was a good thing and is called reptiling and increases the effective viscosity as the oil film gets thinner.

I don't understand all the teeth knashing over oil shearing down a grade. Change the oil in summer let it shear and run the sheared down oil in the winter. Perfect.


Still waiting for your reptiling thesis...but had a dejavu moment....

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't get all the worry about oil being shear resistant. I put 30wt in and 10k miles later it comes out as a 25wt.

So what.


The whole idea of viscosity modifiers are to have a more ideal oil viscosity at all temperatures...

Which means that if you accept the idea of them shearing, you have defeated their purpose in the fist place, and will have to run part of your OCI with an overly thick oil.

Better off to pick a more shear stable thinner oil and be done with it.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3282413/Re:_Asteric_Viscosity_Modifier#Post3282413

BTW, you didn't reply then either...

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
People disagree here on what's "reasonable". Every oil is too thick at, say, 20 degF and under. Current VM technology can't make the oil be around ~100 cSt where I would like it to be when at 20 degF, its always too thick when the mercury drops below freezing.

Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
If it pumps, it's not too thick. An 15W or 20W-XX is not too thick at 20F; it will pump.


Thats the common fallacy. I tried to dispel that a while back. Fact is, oil needs to avoid tripping the max pressure relief valve at the pump, at the oil filter (bypass) too, and then get into tight clearances once its up in various places inside the engine for lubrication to happen cold. Thick oil has trouble running that gauntlet of physics.