Virgin Mobil 1 vs. Mobil 1 EP oil filters: Cut Open

[Big O Dave]

Sorry no pics, yet. I just found a M1-301 EP (Motorcraft FL-1A equivalent), so I bought it to cut open and compare with the M1-301 I'd already cut open. Surprisingly, there is at least one significant, measurable difference (other than the color):

----------Pleat------#-------Element----Element
----------Depth----Pleats----Width------Area---
M1-301----.750"-----54-------3.69"------298.69sq. in.
M1-301EP--.750"-----44-------3.69"------243.38sq. in.

To my untrained eye, both appear to have similar or the same media material... at least it appears to be the same color and thickness... except that the EP has less of it. I hope that the EP has a better media that is able to support the 15,000 mile OCI's implied by its "EP" name, given all the hype Mobil has lavished on its new EP Mobil 1 motor oils.

Both are, of course, made by Champion.

 

[T-Keith]

From what I saw I'd say they apear to be very similar. Less media suprises me though, did you check the thickness?

-T

 

[Big O Dave]

Identical in every way. Photos some time this week...

 

[Winston]

What a let down.

 

[Filter guy]

Someone in this forum once said if you put to many pleats in a filter it reduces the dirt holding capacity...

But then there are those who have the idea more media is better.

Even though engineers can prove that is not necessarily the case.

But more media is better because that what people tell each other.

Oh no it's not.

Don't care..we have to have more media so the competition can't win the media SQ inches race. Because they'll cut and compare filter elements.

But our filter is better with less pleats. With better flow rate and better contaminant capacity.

Looks like the engineers won and not the marketing types at Mobil...

But over and above that..they are different sheets fo media between the Mobil 1 and the EP version...fwiw

 

[Jonny Z]

Dave,
So the hardwares (Basplate, BPV, ADBV, etc)'appear' exactly the same, except the EP has less media, which 'appear' to be the same?

Please post the pictures.

 

[T-Keith]

Come on guys this is a great innovative design.

 

[kanling]

quote:

---

But our filter is better with less pleats. With better flow rate and better contaminant capacity.

---

That's right- the best performing filter has only one pleat and 2-1/2 square inches of media.

Come on now. The only way fewer pleats is better is if the pleats are so jammed together that flow is restricted excessively. Maybe that is the case with the M1 filter here, maybe not.

So... here's a challenge to the fancy filter manufacturers... show me the curves! Flow vs restriction, dirt passing vs. restriction, dirt holding capability. Then I don't need to cut anything open and I don't need to speculate. Right now, that's the only method I have.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Aren't these new EP filters priced higher than the old standard ones?

Mobil wants more money for less filtering? Or... are they faulting the old ones for having too much media?

 

[TurboJim]

Mobil's marketing objectives have probably changed. While the old Mobil 1 was designed for high efficiency, the new filter had to compliment their new long life oils. I'm sure one of the ojbectives was to retain the high efficiency, but now hold up to a longer service life.

 

[Big O Dave]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TurboJim:
Mobil's marketing objectives have probably changed. While the old Mobil 1 was designed for high efficiency, the new filter had to compliment their new long life oils. I'm sure one of the ojbectives was to retain the high efficiency, but now hold up to a longer service life.

---

Okay, but how does a smaller element give you a longer service life, assuming the same media material?

 

[Filter guy]

It's magic...

This is one of the misnomers in filter elements.

I've discussed it before and some get it others don't or don't want to.

Have the length of oil changes intervals changed to be shorter when filters are smaller?

I don't recall anyone advocating 2,000 mile changes because their oil filter is smaller.

So media developement has been the key issue that has allowed for smaller filters ---which outperform--- their larger counter parts.

Two key areas, controlling the pore size and pleat spacing. ( Again making sure there aren't to many pleats).

The old cut and compare days were when everyone used cellulose media and stretching out the paper made for a good show. And people were easily "duped" into thinking more is better.

This continues on with just about every article written on oil filters, somewhere along the line someone cuts open filters and compares SQ inches. Without any regard for media content and testing. Even happens in BITOG..

Ask yourselves how a Japanese/European manufacturer can claim 10,000 mile oil changes on a filter that is 2/3rds the size of a PH8A which is a 3,000 mile change filter? Why wouldn't the Japanese/European filter be 2/3rds bigger?

 

[Big O Dave]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:
Even happens in BITOG...

---

Who would do such a thing, FG?

Okay, I admit that I am doing it. But I have NEVER said that filter element area is the sole criteria by which filters should be judged.

What I asked, above, was...

quote:

---

...how does a smaller element give you a longer service life, assuming the same media material?

---

If the new M1EP oil filtes have a superior media material, compared to their predecessors, let's hear about it!

 

[Filter guy]

You did say assuming the same media..but that's the assumption isn't it...usually it isn't.

However the short answer is that if two filters for the same engine brand but different models use the same grade of media, and the oil change intervals are the same...it should tell you the larger filter has slightly more capacity. When you are talking a pleat or two, that tests out insignificantly. When it is height differential, ( 3.75" filter v 3.5" ) some of that can be taken up by the tension spring v coil spring design, so that the actual surface area isn't much different and test wise becomes nearly the same.

What one needs to do is compare element height instead of can/shell height. With the E-core and no metal endcaps, the surface area of the element is the same or greater than a taller can that uses metal endcaps because you loose about a 1/2" of media usage for the media that sinks into the metal endcaps. And the overall design with the relief valve allows for a shorter can that has more capacity than other engine end relief valve filters. Mobil 1 however does not use the E-core design at this point in time.

As for Mobil 1 EP..i'll let them tout their stuff.

But there is a difference in the media from the old Mobil 1. ( or so i've heard..

) I'm sure the other filter companies are interested as well. So they'll soon find out when they test them.

 

[Big O Dave]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:
What one needs to do is compare element height instead of can/shell height. With the E-core and no metal endcaps, the surface area of the element is the same or greater than a taller can that uses metal endcaps because you loose about a 1/2" of media usage for the media that sinks into the metal endcaps.

---

This is EXACTLY what I've been doing... cutting 'em open and measuring. And, I've found that can size is (within reason) not related to element size.

As you say, FG, the Ecores pack a LOT of filter element into a shorter can... the other side of the coin is that if they would have kept the same size cans, they would have monster filters!

But I digress...

Of course, my untrained eye cannot see any differences between the old M1 and the new M1EP filter elements; all I'm saying is that they look very similar to me, and I'm hoping they are actually different, with the M1EP being superior.

 

[Filter guy]

Dave..your problem is you are comparing different manufacturers with different medias in their filters.

So it is not apples to apples that way when looking at element height. Wix doesn't use the same media as Purolator, nor does Champ and vise versa, etc..


What I mean is taking the same manufacturer who has different height filters for the same OEM brand. Such as the PH8A v the PH400. Or two different Toyota filters of the same manufacturer, etc..

How do you know that the PH8A has the same media as the PH400? They probably do have the same micron rating but that doesn't mean they are the same "grade" of media even from the same manufacturer.

( I know of an italian hydraulic filter brand which uses whatever media they have at hand, say 10 micron beta 200 and puts it in their filter that is supposed to be 3, 10 or 25 micron that are the same physical dimensions for a particular brand of housings. Two different filter manufacturers have tested this brand and told me similar stories independent of each other. We won't buy from them because we can't guarantee our customer will get the exact filter rating he needs.)

 

[Mr Nice]

FilterGuy,

But there is a difference in the media from the old Mobil 1. ( or so i've heard..

)

And just what did this little birdy (engineer) at Champ Labs tell you about the new Mobil 1 EP filter media ??

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

I'm interested in those photos! Just purchased an M1-102 regular as they didn't have the EP in stock and an M1-110EP. They were the same price, which was nice to see.

 

[CQUG4R]

Please, FG...give us a little bit more info.

Thanks

Jim

 

[Big O Dave]

Here are some photos:

M1-301

M1-301 EP