Virgin Honda MTF

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
2,335
Location
Magnolia, TX
I had some fluid left after changing the MTF in my S2000. So I sent this virgin sample in to Blackstone for analysis. It's pretty much what I expected (thin/low viscosity). The high TAN surprises me though. I did a UOA too, but haven't received the report yet. This is the newer Honda MTF formula (grayish silver bottle, green label, white cap).

Aluminum 0
Chromium 0
Iron 0
Copper 0
Lead 0
Tin 0
Moly 0
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 0
Boron 0
Silicon 5
Sodium 0
Calcium 3042
Magnesium 0
Phosphorus 1168
Zinc 1329
Barium 0

SUS visc at 210F 50.8
cSt visc at 100C 7.5
Flashpoint 380F
Water 0%
Insolubles 0%
TAN 3.7
 
Yes, I did notice that the viscosity dropped a couple of years ago when they re-formulated. It seemed water thin and leaked like a sieve in my suction pump. So I decided to test it this OCI. It's funny because Honda recommends to use 10W-30 engine oil if MTF is not available. I have two orphan quarts of Schaeffer's 7000 10W-30 in my garage that might be destined for a short experiment sometime. It has a 1a copper corrosion rating, so it should be safe.
 
Although the add pack looks different, the viscosity and flashpoint looks very DEX IIIish (ATF)!
 
Last edited:
No boron, looks like an old school formulation. It's really hard to see how the EP package is since they never do a Sulfur test, and that is the really heavy lifting with EP.

Calcium, phos, and zinc look a lot like a SL motor oil or HDMO!
 
This MTF doesn't smell like it has any sulfur, and I wouldn't expect it to. This is not supposed to be a EP GL5 hypoid type differential gear oil. If I were to guess, I think it might be a relabeled 5W-20 engine oil for the Honda transmissions. It works very well, but doesn't last very long.
 
No reason an MTL couldn't have a GL-4 sulfur package. In fact, it should IMHO. Otherwise, as you say, it's closer to a motor oil than a gear oil.
 
Not surprising that they dropped the viscosity ... that's the way everything is going.

One thing that a UOA/VOA probably won't show are the friction modifiers ... and their condition. They may be what wears out and/or breaks down and why the shifting becomes so notchy (in addition to the drop in viscosity).
 
Just thought of something: Any of the S2000 boys running Royal Purple Syncromax? Its cSt @ 100C is 7.7 ... almost identical to current Honda MTF.

And if the thinness of the new OEM fluid is a problem and contributing to poor shift quality, why not step up to Pennzoil Syncromesh (or the GM/Chrysler equivalent) which is a cSt @ 100C of about 9.

I'm almost regretting my purchase of the new factory fluid now.
 
You did not make a mistake with the new Honda MTF. It's a big improvement over the original MTF, and its cost is more reasonable than any of the aftermarket alternatives.

GM Synchromesh FM is a good choice, but it only lasts around 3K miles and is very expensive. Redline MTL is popular, as is MT90 (or a mix of both). Lots of mixed reviews though. AMS MTF is a comer with decent performance and lasts maybe up to 10K miles? I'm not familiar with any RP products. Specialty Formulas showed great promise, but is in a hiatus now.

From my experience and studying the subject for almost 7 years now, I'd have to say that this Honda MTF is what I'll stay with. It definitely performs the best and is cost effective. Just plan on changing it every 5K miles. No big deal because it's the easiest fluid to change on the car, and that's when I change the engine oil.
 
INDYMAC, I'm sure the Honda MTF will work fine. But it's more of a pain for me to change it as I have to bug friends and/or family for workspace. I expect to have my own place with a garage in the coming years ... but right now, that's not the case.

So, a change interval of 7,500 - 10,000 miles is more of a disappointment for me ... but not the end of the world.

I used to use Red Line MTL in Hondas and was mostly satisfied with it when it was almost the only lightweight syncromesh fluid available. A few years back I got a batch that seemed so-so ... or maybe it was my tranny ... but I've since switched off all their products, by-and-large.

If Molakule was still in business, I would use one of his lightest two fluids ... no doubt. His MTL-P was easiest the best for my late, lamented Sentra SE-R Spec-V's clunky 6-speed.

Yes, I understand that people you talk to on the net will try a crazy variety/mix/cocktail of fluids in manual trannies. I can't see why anyone would step up to a 90 weight gear oil like MT-90 ... but nothing ventured, nothing gained, I guess.

I don't rock the purple goo ... but I'll see if I can get someone at the S2K forums to try the Syncromax stuff ... or Torco's fluid (if it is still available). Motul probably also has a super-light syncro fluid ... but availability of the stuff in upstate NY is an issue.

A couple years ago I put together this list of syncromesh fluids trying to get people (all different brands of vehicle) to think about their OEM's spec and the various alternatives close to the original weight requested. FMs vary, of course, but I thought I could at least get the viscosity issue out there where everyone could take a look at it.

Manual Transmission Oil Viscosities

ATF type: 6.0 – 7.5 typical

Honda MTF II 7.5
Royal Purple Synchromax 7.7

GM/Chrysler Synchromesh type: 8.5-10.0 typical
Torco MTF 8.35
Pennzoil Syncromesh: 9.08
Amsoil MTF (5W-30) 9.6
Red Line MTL 10.6
Honda MTF 1 10-11?

75-85 Gear Oils: 12.0-12.5 typical
Specialty Formulations MTL-P 12.0-12.5
Castrol Syntorq 75W-85 12.0???
Nissan 75W-85 12.0???


90 weight Gear oils: 15-16.5 typical
Royal Purple Max Gear 14.5 (Published: 21)
Amsoil MTG 14.7
Pennzoil GL4 75W-90 15.3
Red Line MT-90 15.6

* All viscosities measured in cSt @ 100C/212F
 
Last edited:
Quote:
I think it might be a relabeled 5W-20 engine oil for the Honda transmissions.


Looking at the additive pack, it is definately not an engine oil.

It appears to be a robust MTL for the ATF-viscosity transmissions.

Historically speaking, our former MTFGlide had an average viscosity of 7.8 cSt and was one of the first manual transmission lubes speced for trannys using ATF viscosity fluids and an industry first MTL having a viscosity index of 197.
 
Last edited:
May I join your discussion?

Several of the posts above have noted that HMC's MTF seems similar to motor oil. I agree. And for decades, that's precisely what HMC recommended for its manual-transmission cars, motor oil -- specifically, 10W-30 weight motor oil. In this regard, several of my current Honda owners' manuals state: "If Honda MTF is not available, you may use an SAE 10W-30 or 10W-40 viscosity motor oil with the API Certification seal that says 'FOR GASOLINE ENGINES' as a temporary replacement." The "temporary replacement" caveat is because (quoting the manuals) "[M]otor oil does not contain the proper additives, and continued use may cause stiffer shifting. Replace as soon as convenient." (See, e.g., the 2009/2010 Accord Owner's Manual.)(Emphasis added.)

The owner's manual language fascinated me. Could one really use straight motor oil? And when HMC reformulated its MTF approximately three years ago, I wondered what HMC had added to its old formula, if anything, to address owner's complaints about poor shifting and gears grinding. It appeared (from VOAs on this site) that HMC has simply added a huge dose of calcium to its old formula. And, as others have noted, HMC's MTF is still pretty thin stuff.

I decided to try a few experiments. Since other boards had reported decent results using Amsoil's MTF (a 5W-30 weight concoction), I decided to try it. And it worked pretty well, improving the shifting "feel" noticeably in two Civic Si's, particularly when temperatures were near freezing or below. This caused me to wonder whether synthetic 5W-30 or 10W-30 motor oil might work just as well over time. Further experimentation was called for.

In light of the caveat in the owners' manuals concerning the potential for stiffer shifting over time, I decided that instead of straight (synthetic) motor oil, I'd mix a quart of HMC's MTF (part no.08798-9031, white cap) with a quart of Mobil 1 10W-30.

I can report that after approximately one year and 6K miles in an '02 Honda Si with 26K miles on the odometer, this nutty concoction seems not just adequate or "good" but great. It works so well that I actually considered starting a business to sell the stuff. (Turns out the cost of the bottles (!) would make a "boutique oil" too expensive to sell in the limited numbers I could envision.) But the shifting feel is excellent, and equally important, the improvement is consistent over time, distance and temperature. The long-term consequences remain to be determined, of course, but the difference between Honda's straight MTF and this blend is like night and day.
 
Thanks for the input on trying engine oil in your Honda Gurney. I too am experimenting with Schaeffers 10W-30 #703 in my S2000 tranny. It's only been about 500 miles so far during a hot Texas summer, but I really like it so far over the fresh MTF II that I drained early. We'll see what the cooler fall and winter temps bring about though. Maybe there's a summer/winter OCI schedule in my future!
 
It further appears that they are not using a Sulfur-Phosphorous (S-P) additve package but ZDDP at around 1500 ppm.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Molakule. Honda says that 10W-30 engine oil can be used but shifting may become stiffer than using MTF because it doesn't have the same friction modifiers as MTF. Do you know what FM additives might be missing in 10W-30 engine oil?

I'm using Schaeffers 7000 10W-30 now and I like it so far. It does feel a little stiffer on shifts, but not bad at all. My subjective feeling is that it is protecting my transmission better than MTF, but I won't know for sure until I do a UOA. A previous Dyson UOA (engine) shows additives 1713ppm Ca, 22ppm Mg, 883ppm Zn, 819ppm P, 235ppm Mo, 92ppm Na, and 4ppm B in this batch of #703. If Honda is concerned about low levels of FM in engine oil, what might they be? ZDDP, or something else?

Thanks.
 
INDY, I'm not sure Mola will be able to know for sure the FM package from looking at a UOA. Usually UOAs provide just a glimpse we can only guess at ... but he can answer that.

Your luck with Schaeffer 10W-30 is interesting. I think the oil offers great anti-wear and is pretty resistant (among motor oils) to shear-down ... but I would have guessed it would give lousy shift feel and possibly damage the synchros over time ... who knew??
 
I don't think Honda is concened about the FM's in engine oils when used in engines.

FM's for engine oils and FM's for MT's are simply different chemical compounds.

Rest assured the virgin Honda MT shown above does have an FM for MT's, whereas the FM for the Schaeffer's engine oil is a different type of FM for engine operation.

In the Honda MT, the AW agent is much more robust than the engine oil you are using.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top