Amsoil MTF/Honda MTF 2004 S2000

[INDYMAC]

This was the second fill of Amsoil MTF Synchromesh 5W-30. The UOA is the same batch as the VOA.

The Honda MTF UOA is not the same batch as the VOA.

My car is stock and is driven hard when the opportunity arises (yes, I do look for them). But it is not raced.

Trying, using, and liking MTF's in this car is a very subjective thing. I have tried several. Most are at least acceptable, if not great. But they all seem to wear out between 3-5K miles for me, and the hot summer months usually highlight any flaws. I like the Amsoil MTF. The new batch feels great again.

Code:
Amsoil MTF Amsoil MTF Honda MTF Honda MTF

65,260 miles Clean Ref 55,149 miles Clean Ref

4,633 miles 8,707 miles

8/11/2012 8/11/2012 7/19/2010 7/19/2010



Iron 17 6 11 0

Chromium 0 0 0 0

Nickel 0 0 0 0

Aluminum 2 1 1 0

Copper 2 0 2 0

Lead 6 0 13 0

Tin 0 0 4 0

Cadmium 0 0 NA NA

Silver 0 0 0 0

Vanadium 0 0 NA NA

Silicon 11 6 9 5

Sodium 2 0 2 0

Potassium 0 0 2 0

Titanium 0 0 0 0

Molybdenum 2 0 2 0

Antimony 0 0 NA NA

Manganese 0 0 1 0

Lithium 0 0 NA NA

Boron 3 4 7 0

Magnesium 4,172 4,424 30 0

Calcium 94 39 2,964 3,042

Barium 0 0 0 0

Phosphorous 1,277 1,210 1,246 1,168

Zinc 957 985 1,532 1,329



SUSV@210 NA NA 45.9 50.8

cStV@100C 8.6 9.8 5.99 7.50

Water%
TAN 2.08 2.29 4.0 3.7

Insolubles% NA NA 0.1 0.0


Amsoil was tested by Polaris Labs Houston. Honda MTF was tested by Blackstone Labs.

 

[dparm]

Whoa, that Honda stuff is THIN.

 

[SLCraig]

Interesting comparo, considering I am always reading about how picky the Honda manual trans is. Have only used the same two you list (Honda from factory) and Amsoil. I plan on trying Redline MTL despite me not liking the equivalent Redline at all in my Nissan.

For some reason with these Honda manuals, they lose shift quality quickly. Mine still seems fine, but if I put some new stuff in, I am betting it seems like new again.

 

[ltslimjim]

Okay, so fairly different add packs. Magnesium instead of calcium for the Amsoil product, and a good bit less zinc. The Honda MTF did better in Iron wear but had a worse look in regards to lead. It's hard to say definitively either way I suppose.

 

[MolaKule]

The Honda MTL viscosity has the same viscosity as DexronIII/Merc ATF's.

So the Honda MT fluid is similar to Ford's dry clutch DCT tranny fluid, in that it has an MT addpack with an ATF-like viscosity.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Is there a toss up between magnesium vs calcium, and what about the zinc difference?

Aside from degrading 'shift quality' while using Honda Genuine I also was somewhat concerned going from the traditionally recommended 10w-30 or 10w-40 down to a 20.

 

[INDYMAC]

I think the original MTF that came OEM with my car from Honda was closer to a 10W-30 viscosity. The newer MTF II is as Molakule describes and evident by my tests.

I think Honda came out with the new MTF to address cold oil shifting complaints. It did help in that area, but after shearing I had 1-2 shift problems (balking and grinding) and occassionally it would pop out of 1st gear while starting from a dead stop (not a pleasant experience at all).

I have not had a pop out of gear since switching to a 10W-30 engine oil or the Amsoil MTF. And as long as your careful shifting when the oil is cold, the 1-2 shifts aren't bad at all. Operating temp shifts are all excellent.

 

[ltslimjim]

^My experience in shift feel has been similar between the two. However, no pop out issues.

 

[Mr Nice]

I wonder how it would shift with 50/50 mix of 10w30 Synpower and Honda MTF ?
That's the combo I will use in my 2007 Civic.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Hey, report back please!

 

[Mr Nice]

^Will do.

I put SL rated 10w30 Havoline Synthetic with Honda MTF in our old 1998 Civic EX (225K miles) and it shifted just fine, no difference compared to 100% Honda MTF.

 

[SOHCman]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
I wonder how it would shift with 50/50 mix of 10w30 Synpower and Honda MTF ?
That's the combo I will use in my 2007 Civic.


Would be leery about PCMO additives like molly that can foul syncros. If it works, great but syncros are designed to require a certain amount of friction from the lubrication. Let us know how it works out!

 

[tudorart]

Honda MTF is a 75W grade and probably same as older GL-3. Most recent VW transaxles run the same viscosity as well in GL-4.

 

[rossn2]

Have you tried Redline MTL in the tranny?

 

[INDYMAC]

No, not yet.

 

[Cxserver]

fisrt time in 10 years i switched from honda mtf to try a synthetic large brand name mtf. Syncros wore out.Trans builder i know said i should have asked first and stick with honda mtf. Just bought a used trans and 3 years so far no issues with honda mtf.

Glad others got away with other options with no costly damage.

How many months does it taks you to go those miles?

 

[INDYMAC]

This car gets driven about 4-5K miles a year now.

The reason I decided to try something else was because occassionally it would pop out of first gear (frightening sound and experience) while trying to leave my garage. It did it a couple of times at a stop light too (before the fluid was fully warmed up). It never did it with hot Honda MTF II. Since switching to a 10W-30 engine oil, and then Amsoil MTF, I haven't experienced this again. I don't think it's a viscosity issue though, since we're talking about cold fluid temps (my garage doesn't get very cold and I don't drive the car unless it's above 40F). Maybe it has to do with additive activation temps.

Sorry to hear about your tranny. Good luck with your new one.

 

[MolaKule]

Thanks for posting VOA's as well since this is only way you see how the fluid is trending after introduction.

 

[INDYMAC]

I'm trying to go "all in" with oil analysis Molakule. Sometimes my checkbook balks though. Formula changes, supplier changes, lab error, and batch to batch deviations can throw a wrench in the program though. I try to have at least one VOA for a lube that I intend to use often in my vehicles though.

 

[CATERHAM]

I used to use the heavier original Honda MTL when it had a viscosity of a 30wt oil but discontinued when they the dropped the viscosity into the 20wt range.
Currently I'm using RL MTL 70W-80 which is a high 183 VI 30wt oil.