Video about Fram end caps

[Motorking]

Originally Posted By: MBS500
I sent email with a link to Purolator guys, and asked them to chime in

Let's see what happens.
Purolator states test are done @ 20 micron, Fram guy says @25.

Let the war begin!!!

really? It is right on the box of their new "synthetic oil filter
"tested using iso 4548-12 @ 25 microns.

 

[Motorking]

We test all filters using ISO-4548-12 tests. this test specifies the "test dirt" be 10-20 microns in size.
Here is why this is generally accepted particle size for filter testing
"Abrasive engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in filter SPE(MP). Compared to a 40 micron filter, engine wear was reduced by 50% with 30 micron filtration." (98% point)
"Likewise, wear was reduced by 70% with 15 micron filtration."
(SAE TPS 881825 p5 - David R. Staley, General Motors Corp. 1988
GM spent millions of dollars on the study that produced these results.

 

[Motorking]

Sayjac,
Would you like to visit the FRAM engineering lab with travel expenses on me? This sept 12-13th. Dinner and one on one discussion with the president of the company, the chief engineer and marketing VP. A chance to really learn about filtration and have input on product development. Let me know at [email protected]

 

[ZeeOSix]

Motorking ... where is the FRAM Engineering Lab? Detroit? Wow, I hope some of these guys go. I think it would be very interesting to see the lab and the testing, and to chat with the guys at the top.

 

[volk06]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Motorking ... where is the FRAM Engineering Lab? Detroit? Wow, I hope some of these guys go. I think it would be very interesting to see the lab and the testing, and to chat with the guys at the top.


No doubt! Just think how many of us BITOG'rs would love to take that tour!

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Motorking
Sayjac,
Would you like to visit the FRAM engineering lab with travel expenses on me? This sept 12-13th.....

That's a very generous offer, thanks. Have to see if I can make those days available for the trip, sounds interesting.

As for the XG/Ultra, excepting the new tapping plate design I have no issues with it's construction or efficiency. The price for construction is reasonable, especially if used for extended oci's. If it matters, the XG/Ultra is generally well respected here. Like to see them on a sale once and a while though. And, I use standard Fram air filters all the time. So, no Fram hater.

My posts in this thread have nothing to do Fram construction, rather a filter efficiency rating system difference.

That aside, again I appreciate the gracious offer, see what I can do.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: Motorking
We test all filters using ISO-4548-12 tests. this test specifies the "test dirt" be 10-20 microns in size.
Here is why this is generally accepted particle size for filter testing
"Abrasive engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in filter SPE(MP). Compared to a 40 micron filter, engine wear was reduced by 50% with 30 micron filtration." (98% point)
"Likewise, wear was reduced by 70% with 15 micron filtration."
(SAE TPS 881825 p5 - David R. Staley, General Motors Corp. 1988
GM spent millions of dollars on the study that produced these results.


Yet, these studies are on particulars apps or just generalized testing with a 'dummy' engine?

It's hard to quantify an absolute, other than to say: Better filtration is typically preferred. That's saying what we already know, JMO.

So, if it comes down to it as far as most can observe here, there doesn't seem to be much performance difference in entry level filtration or 'basic'/'standard' oil filters in the consumer market.

I'd imagine, more so that oddly designed filters(comparative to a 'norm') or new filter design/composition is more of the unknown.

I have used Fram before, I prefer synthetic media (even if a 'blend) filters when I'm performing an oil change past 5,000 miles personally just in my own preference. Otherwise, the nutshell seems to be the Fram's endcap design for it's standard filters compared to others like Purolator, Wix, etc. As far as what is in the states.

Originally Posted By: Motorking
Sayjac,
Would you like to visit the FRAM engineering lab with travel expenses on me? This sept 12-13th. Dinner and one on one discussion with the president of the company, the chief engineer and marketing VP. A chance to really learn about filtration and have input on product development. Let me know at [email protected]


^Yes, sayjac and Zee0Six are all better candidates than myself to take you up on this invitation. They would be more thorough and appreciate for the experience as our hardcore oil filtration posters.

All the same, thanks for the invite. I'm not in a position to go, unfortunately.

...and...I'm fixing my car.

 

[FordGuy13]

Does any of the other oil filters companies exceed those claims of Royal Purple and Amsoil?

Average beta rating based on ISO 4548-12 multi-pass test methods:

B100 = 25 (25 or greater micron; media is 99% efficient.)
B75 = 20 (20 or greater micron; media is 98.7% efficient. Also considered absolute rating.)
B5 = 10 (10 micron or greater; media is 80% efficient.)

Some say that cheaper filters are just as efficient at 20-25 microns but I have yet to see anything close to 80% at >10 Microns, even the good Motorcraft filters are only 80% at >20 Microns.

 

[GumbyJarvis]

Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Honda filters are from Honeywell (FRAM) with fiber end caps. Honda recommends the filter be changed every other oil change (15k miles), so they believe fiber end caps will perform fine. The filter I have cut open after 7500 looks to be in perfect condition. I don't see any problem with the end cap be fiber, it reinforced by adhesive needs to seal and hold the pleat separation. The center tube is what provides the structure.

I have been also using P1 filters due to availability, low price and belief they had better filtration, but I may reconsider this given the PL14610 actually states 40 micron rating.

My other filter application using the PL10241, which I have found to have uneven pleat spacing and buckling near the media seam. My big concern is several have had an issue with the media nearly torn where the buckled pleat meets the end cap glue. The buckling on this model may be from pressing those metal end caps to the center tube. Again questioning the Puralotor brand.

I plan to continue to cut these open to monitor them, wish I had a slick cutter.


Reason youre using the L10241?

L20195 is what I use, its an oversized L10241. Its what I mainly use and my truck is specd L10241 someplaces

 

[Motorking]

To those of you I have invited for a lab tour in september, I need a response asap as we are finalizing the list this week. You fly into detroit, the lab is near toledo. We will arrange all travel and absorb all expenses. This is your opportunity to not only see exactly how all manufacturers test filters, but to give input to the president of FRAM. One on one audience with the chief engineer and vp of marketing. I need confirmation this week. If anone else is interested, please contact me at [email protected] or 248-808-4551. The only thing you need to bring is an open mind.
ps-lots of technical oil filter video on my youtube channel at youtube.com/cadzillals6

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: Motorking
To those of you I have invited for a lab tour in september, I need a response asap as we are finalizing the list this week. You fly into detroit, the lab is near toledo. We will arrange all travel and absorb all expenses.....


For the most part, a Fram will probably get you to 300K miles. And I have used some MicroGard Fram-built filters when I got a FAR deal from O'Reillys. (Engine hasn't fallen apart yet....)
But I simply don't buy a Fram filter because they are priced about $2 more than what they are worth. I guess I don't want to pay for the 20 foot inflatable faux filters at the race track, the cheap orange filter that they put on a $10K engine on a TV show, or paying travel expenses for some guys who get to see your 4 hour infomercial at the factory.
I guess I don't have an open mind.
P.S. Are you also going to tour them through the E-core factory that you purchased?

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: Motorking
To those of you I have invited for a lab tour in september, I need a response asap as we are finalizing the list this week. You fly into detroit, the lab is near toledo. We will arrange all travel and absorb all expenses.....


For the most part, a Fram will probably get you to 300K miles. And I have used some MicroGard Fram-built filters when I got a FAR deal from O'Reillys. (Engine hasn't fallen apart yet....)
But I simply don't buy a Fram filter because they are priced about $2 more than what they are worth. I guess I don't want to pay for the 20 foot inflatable faux filters at the race track, the cheap orange filter that they put on a $10K engine on a TV show, or paying travel expenses for some guys who get to see your 4 hour infomercial at the factory.
I guess I don't have an open mind.
P.S. Are you also going to tour them through the E-core factory that you purchased?

Its not that you don't have an open mind, you just prefer cheap $$ filters. On the high end, the Fram Ultra is $2-3 less than the M1, K&N, Bosch D+, etc.

 

[mr_diy]

Originally Posted By: GumbyJarvis
Reason youre using the L10241?

L20195 is what I use, its an oversized L10241. Its what I mainly use and my truck is specd L10241 someplaces


Thanks, I will look into this option, if the price/availability is the same it appears to be the better choice.

 

[kemo]

Originally Posted By: Motorking
Originally Posted By: MBS500
I sent email with a link to Purolator guys, and asked them to chime in

Let's see what happens.
Purolator states test are done @ 20 micron, Fram guy says @25.

Let the war begin!!!

really? It is right on the box of their new "synthetic oil filter
"tested using iso 4548-12 @ 25 microns.


Do you actually know your competitor's products besides one line? That is only the Synthetics filter. Scroll to the bottom: http://www.purolatorautofilters.net/products/oil_filters/Pages/pureoneoilfilters.aspx

Now, scroll to the bottom: http://www.purolatorautofilters.net/products/oil_filters/Pages/purolatoroilfilters.aspx

Can't miss it, it is right on the box.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: morris
SOOOOOO long term,how does the 2-3$ difference from a fair filter to a top notch filter hurt you? ill take the better filter. after all what ARE you going to do with $3


Word on the street is $2 buys you a few minutes entertainment out by the train station in Lakewood, but that's pretty far from you so I'll forgive your oversight.

 

[modularv8]

According to SAE paper number: 2010-01-1542

"The Evaluation of Mechanical Design and
Comparison of Automotive Oil Filters"

"Cardboard is not a superior material for an endcap due to possible durability issues". Oil operating temperature and fluctuations in pressure and flow rates over time could lead to "porosity" of the cardboard endcap or
"total failure".

 

[Pajamarama]

Originally Posted By: Motorking
To those of you I have invited for a lab tour in september, I need a response asap as we are finalizing the list this week. You fly into detroit, the lab is near toledo. We will arrange all travel and absorb all expenses. This is your opportunity to not only see exactly how all manufacturers test filters, but to give input to the president of FRAM. One on one audience with the chief engineer and vp of marketing. I need confirmation this week. If anone else is interested, please contact me at [email protected] or 248-808-4551. The only thing you need to bring is an open mind.
ps-lots of technical oil filter video on my youtube channel at youtube.com/cadzillals6


Just read this thread looking for something else.

This offer to visit the FRAM HQ sounds like a really cool opportunity. Did anyone make the trip?

 

[KevGuy]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
That said, I happened to remove a Fram with 5k on it from my wifes Venture this morning. I was able to turn the filter upside and down and maintain a steady but small stream, not drops, stream of oil running into the drain pan continuously for at least 3 minutes before it started to come in drops.

ADBV failure again from the OCOD, really my only beef with them.



Look, I pulled the FRAM orange can off my car today (did oil change today) and the ADBV worked just fine when I turned it upside down.

 

[KevGuy]

Originally Posted By: chainblu
Originally Posted By: KCJeep


ADBV failure again...


Maybe I don't fully understand ADBVs. What would keep the oil in the filter from passing thru the filter element and running out?


That is most likely what happened....

 

[KevGuy]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Motorking ... where is the FRAM Engineering Lab? Detroit? Wow, I hope some of these guys go. I think it would be very interesting to see the lab and the testing, and to chat with the guys at the top.


I would love to go see the FRAM lab!