Vehicle-to-Grid Power Is Becoming a Reality, But Why Isn’t Progress Faster?

[SC Maintenance]

Most people charge at night, which is much less. Full transparancy, I don't know the TOU rates, but I think they are higher than I posted. Peak is over 60 cents per kWh.

Yes, but here is the falacy of using EV's to balance the grid out. Wholesale electricity prices vary from almost zero /kwh to at most 30 cents kwh in NYC. In most places even wholesale peak is less than 15 cent / kwh. I pay more than that at retail.

There is no business model to sell EV stored power back to the grid.

 

[alarmguy]

"Vehicle-to-Grid Power Is Becoming a Reality, But Why Isn’t Progress Faster?"

I ask a similar question. Why arent we building nuclear power plants in the USA. We all admit how China is taking over the world, it seems in everything. One day they will surpass us in reliable nuclear power.
New reactors under construction
China - 29 (plus another 41 planned and another 168 under consideration.
USA - 0

This is the one and only reason we need cars to plug into the grid right now anyway as a stop gap measure.

https://pris.iaea.org/PRIS/WorldStatistics/UnderConstructionReactorsByCountry.aspx

 

[OVERKILL]

The economic arguments for V2G are dubious. You are imposing wear and tear on something with a finite number of cycles and for it to make economic sense for the home user, those kWh would need to be compensated at a very high rate, which will drive up grid costs. This is how you end up in the California situation with insane rates because you started paying people full retail for their solar.

It's a lot like suggesting that people should install home generators and run them as peakers to help the grid. The cost of a kWh from a home genset to make that economically practical means that if you are considering this as a real option, you have well and truly lost the plot and your grid is already a disaster, serving the demands of special interests, not the ratepayers.

Natural gas plants in Ontario can make money selling their power into the grid at 4 cents. Even including the additional costs of availability (plants are paid to be on standby) the total cost to ratepayers is less than 9 cents:

The upcoming version of this chart SHOULD have batteries on it, since we have two battery projects on the grid now. It will be interesting to see what that cost looks like.

Like with the genset vs gas plant comparison, a V2G situation where the battery is primarily purposed for transportation not grid support, and is wrapped in this expensive shell called a "car" or "truck", prepositions it to be at a massive economic disadvantage compared to a dedicated grid-scale solution.

There are plenty of people who have staked a livelihood on the concepts of "Micro grids" and "virtual power plants" and typically, when arguing for these solutions, the total economics; the complete system costs of these solutions are not being properly compared to legacy solutions, which are less complex. They also typically include subsidies of some sort, but they aren't factored into the cost (we just assume every house has solar and a battery for example, and we don't include that CAPEX in the system cost comparison).

There's a reason solar adoption in Ontario completely stalled when we removed the ludicrous subsidies (visible in the above chart). Even given the price decline in modules, there isn't much of an economic case for it due to low retail rates. Of course now we see various subsidy programs reemerging as part of "greener homes" and "energy efficiency" programs that will put a lump sum against a solar install, which is ridiculous, but it's not as bad as the guaranteed gravy train where you could get 60-80 cents per kWh.

VRE is Schrodinger's generator: The cheapest possible source of electricity. Demands subsidies so it will get installed because projects aren't economically viable.

 

[dogememe]

I'm not particularly interested in V2G but I think V2H is important. Certain GM EVs can do it but it requires GM's expensive proprietary charger. Tesla Cybertruck and the new Model Y Performance can do it, but it requires their own proprietary charger. In theory you can use various EVs with onboard power or J1772 to wall outlets and use a generator outlet/transfer switch in an emergency but it's not as clean or automated or safe of a solution.

Part of the NACS charging standard should include this so that anyone can use any EV at any home to do this. Powerwalls and other home energy solutions are an important part of the future, but if I was a homeowner I'd rather have a single Powerwall and use my car for extended outages than buy a bunch of Powerwalls. From a quick AI lookup a Powerwall 3 is 13.5kwh and costs $10K-15K. Let's say that's $1K/kwh. Vs a Sierra EV with 205kwh battery that costs $80K. That's $390/kwh. And you get an entire car with it and instead of throwing away the Powerwall in 10 years when it's worth $0, most people get a new EV every few years so you always have a fresh battery.

And I've mentioned it before and it's kinda off-topic but the US needs nuclear, FAST AND NOW.

 

[Brons2]

So you will allow others to impose wear and tear on your battery for free?

If the financial compensation for the energy used is worth it to me, when judged in the balance of the wear on the battery, then yes.

I believe the preposition that people's vehicle batteries be used as free is something of a strawman. I don't believe that anyone has proposed as much. Nobody's doing it for free, because as you noted, it comes with a cost in impact to battery lifetime.

 

[Brons2]

Yes, but she charged it via solar sounds like. So beyond initial investment then the power was free via the sun, so if she sells it back to the utility its a net profit - on variable cost at least. I assume its a Tesla wall? They can cycle 10,000 times or some crazy number.

However if I charged my EV off the grid at retail rate, then there going to have to pay me a lot more than retail to incentivize me to sell it back to them. I don't believe any utility pays more than retail on net meter. California used to, but a judge ended that. I believe those that had installed prior were grandfathered in to the > retail sell back rate. @JeffKeryk would know.

Yes correct, she charges it with solar.

I don't think anyone would be interested in selling back battery energy at public L3 charging rates, if all you got was net metering rates. In my sister's case she is in the open competition area where you can get any utility provider, so she probably does better than I do with my rural co-op on buyback. My net metering rate is less than what I pay for power in the first place, so you don't get very much back at all.

A lot of this is going to be software based anyway if people were to pursue it. An ideal scenario would be, "I want to sell my EV's power back to the grid if the buyback rate is $X".

During the 2021 winter storm ERCOT generating crisis, there were some crazy rates observed on the open market. I'm not sure that could ever be offered to consumers, but if something was offered that was way above normal consumption rates, heck yeah I'd want in on it.

 

[Brons2]

The economic arguments for V2G are dubious. You are imposing wear and tear on something with a finite number of cycles and for it to make economic sense for the home user, those kWh would need to be compensated at a very high rate, which will drive up grid costs. This is how you end up in the California situation with insane rates because you started paying people full retail for their solar.

It's a lot like suggesting that people should install home generators and run them as peakers to help the grid. The cost of a kWh from a home genset to make that economically practical means that if you are considering this as a real option, you have well and truly lost the plot and your grid is already a disaster, serving the demands of special interests, not the ratepayers.

Natural gas plants in Ontario can make money selling their power into the grid at 4 cents. Even including the additional costs of availability (plants are paid to be on standby) the total cost to ratepayers is less than 9 cents:
View attachment 303177

The upcoming version of this chart SHOULD have batteries on it, since we have two battery projects on the grid now. It will be interesting to see what that cost looks like.

Like with the genset vs gas plant comparison, a V2G situation where the battery is primarily purposed for transportation not grid support, and is wrapped in this expensive shell called a "car" or "truck", prepositions it to be at a massive economic disadvantage compared to a dedicated grid-scale solution.

There are plenty of people who have staked a livelihood on the concepts of "Micro grids" and "virtual power plants" and typically, when arguing for these solutions, the total economics; the complete system costs of these solutions are not being properly compared to legacy solutions, which are less complex. They also typically include subsidies of some sort, but they aren't factored into the cost (we just assume every house has solar and a battery for example, and we don't include that CAPEX in the system cost comparison).

There's a reason solar adoption in Ontario completely stalled when we removed the ludicrous subsidies (visible in the above chart). Even given the price decline in modules, there isn't much of an economic case for it due to low retail rates. Of course now we see various subsidy programs reemerging as part of "greener homes" and "energy efficiency" programs that will put a lump sum against a solar install, which is ridiculous, but it's not as bad as the guaranteed gravy train where you could get 60-80 cents per kWh.

VRE is Schrodinger's generator: The cheapest possible source of electricity. Demands subsidies so it will get installed because projects aren't economically viable.

The counterpoint to these pure cost of generation arguments is that, provided reliability is somewhat less than 100%

Above 99%? I would think so in most situations with most utiliites.

But when we hit those points at which demand exceeds supply, what can we do to bridge the gap? Demanding 100% grid reliability isn't possible at a cost that would be acceptable to end users. Sometimes the SHTF, like in February 2021 in Texas. Or due to population growth, sometimes there just isn't enough power to meet demand on my grid during the afternoon on a 104F/40C day and so ERCOT has to ask for conservation.

Ok, so the nominal rate wholesale rate for gas generation to be fed into the grid is 4 cents. Great. But if you have a free market on supply generation at spot rates, what is the rate in a crisis mode like in February 2021 in Texas? It's a lot more than 4 cents per KWH. Does this spot rate in high demand situations make spending money on non-traditional solutions make more sense? I don't know, you're the expert. That said as well, what's the least cost solution? My vehicle's DC to AC converter can only run at a max of 48A at 240V, so that's all the grid could get anyway, is that so different than simply feeding solar back into the system? Is it useful to the system in a shortage situation?

I mean @dogememe mentioned he wants V2H but doesn't care about V2G. I'm not opposed to that viewpoint. Certainly the more homes that could do V2H in a crisis situation, is going to help the overall grid state. And it also helps when you have a situation that is local to your neighborhood, like, the transformer down the street blew up. But anyway.

 

[Brons2]

"Vehicle-to-Grid Power Is Becoming a Reality, But Why Isn’t Progress Faster?"

I ask a similar question. Why arent we building nuclear power plants in the USA. We all admit how China is taking over the world, it seems in everything. One day they will surpass us in reliable nuclear power.
New reactors under construction
China - 29 (plus another 41 planned and another 168 under consideration.
USA - 0

This is the one and only reason we need cars to plug into the grid right now anyway as a stop gap measure.
View attachment 303170
https://pris.iaea.org/PRIS/WorldStatistics/UnderConstructionReactorsByCountry.aspx

I thought Georgia Power was still working on another Vogtle unit?

[edit] the last unit came online in 2024, never mind.

 

[OVERKILL]

Powerwalls and other home energy solutions are an important part of the future, but if I was a homeowner I'd rather have a single Powerwall and use my car for extended outages than buy a bunch of Powerwalls. From a quick AI lookup a Powerwall 3 is 13.5kwh and costs $10K-15K. Let's say that's $1K/kwh. Vs a Sierra EV with 205kwh battery that costs $80K. That's $390/kwh. And you get an entire car with it and instead of throwing away the Powerwall in 10 years when it's worth $0, most people get a new EV every few years so you always have a fresh battery.

And I've mentioned it before and it's kinda off-topic but the US needs nuclear, FAST AND NOW.

Or you buy a generator for $1,500?

The ice storm we had back in the spring that took out my wife's truck, we got a Generlink installed on day 3 (was using extension cords prior to that), I ran that generator for an entire week. There was no way V2G or a Powerwall/solar combo was going to work in its stead.

I'm not sure that powerwall's and other home battery solutions are an "important part of the future". I think they will be there, and they will fill a role, but their utility is often oversold and limitations glossed over as part of this "back to the future" inspired recasting of the devolution of power generation as "futuristic", ignoring, or ignorant of the fact that this is how it all began.

That society has managed to be convinced that a return to sun and sail; that the return to dependance on the vagaries of weather is somehow modernization, baffles, but then I think of the Malthusian bent against things like nuclear and "excessive abundance" and it makes total sense, it's the same FUD, just reimaged as "modern" and "progressive", as the environmental stuff wasn't enough.

 

[Brons2]

Yes, but here is the falacy of using EV's to balance the grid out. Wholesale electricity prices vary from almost zero /kwh to at most 30 cents kwh in NYC. In most places even wholesale peak is less than 15 cent / kwh. I pay more than that at retail.

There is no business model to sell EV stored power back to the grid.

View attachment 303103

https://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/contours/rtmLmp.html

The top (possible) of the scale is $9000 per MWH, or $9 per KWH.

Going to the High Gradient view, in the "View As" box, gets you more close to real time wholesale pricing.

 

[alarmguy]

I thought Georgia Power was still working on another Vogtle unit?

[edit] the last unit came online in 2024, never mind.

Yes, they finally got them all (4?) Vogle units up and running.

Next door in SC, our state for 16 years before recently moving. Has a nuclear plant, guessing about 10 straight line (not road miles) miles from where our home was. I was so proud of SC (which I love) that they were the only ones to start construction in the country to add TWO more to the site. Right now roughly 55% of SC electric is nuclear.

However ...
ALL kinds of issues popped up, mostly all the fault of Westinghouse. Problem was SCEG management were covering it up and the dominos fell.

Now there are talks to start up construction again. The states with the power to power AI and everything else will win.
https://www.reuters.com/business/en...-vc-summer-reactors-gain-traction-2025-07-04/

The failed construction below, after 9 billion dollars was spent. We even have new huge electric towers built with power lines to around the state be used to distribute power from the plants that were never finished.

Its a beautiful area too... always would ride my motorycycles up to the reservoir used for cooling water for the original nuclear plant that still operates today.
New plants were to be self contained cooling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil_C._Summer_Nuclear_Generating_Station

 

[OVERKILL]

The counterpoint to these pure cost of generation arguments is that, provided reliability is somewhat less than 100%

Above 99%? I would think so in most situations with most utiliites.

But when we hit those points at which demand exceeds supply, what can we do to bridge the gap? Demanding 100% grid reliability isn't possible at a cost that would be acceptable to end users. Sometimes the SHTF, like in February 2021 in Texas. Or due to population growth, sometimes there just isn't enough power to meet demand on my grid during the afternoon on a 104F/40C day and so ERCOT has to ask for conservation.

Ok, so the nominal rate wholesale rate for gas generation to be fed into the grid is 4 cents. Great. But if you have a free market on supply generation at spot rates, what is the rate in a crisis mode like in February 2021 in Texas? It's a lot more than 4 cents per KWH. Does this spot rate in high demand situations make spending money on non-traditional solutions make more sense? I don't know, you're the expert. That said as well, what's the least cost solution? My vehicle's DC to AC converter can only run at a max of 48A at 240V, so that's all the grid could get anyway, is that so different than simply feeding solar back into the system? Is it useful to the system in a shortage situation?

I mean @dogememe mentioned he wants V2H but doesn't care about V2G. I'm not opposed to that viewpoint. Certainly the more homes that could do V2H in a crisis situation, is going to help the overall grid state. And it also helps when you have a situation that is local to your neighborhood, like, the transformer down the street blew up. But anyway.

Your view is framed by ERCOT's configuration where you don't have surplus supply, as your system is very similar to Alberta's where everything, including installed capacity, is dictated by whether it's viable in the market. Ontario doesn't have demand exceeding supply, and, when the entire nuclear fleet is operational, our reserve capacity is staggering (it's tighter right now, due to the refurbishments). There are myriad grid configurations and I'm not convinced that the Texas "Free Market" approach is the best one. Quebec has some of the cheapest electricity in the world, and their grid is entirely vertically integrated.

We also don't have SHTF issues with pricing when there's a natural disaster or grid collapse, everything is regulated.

If the Maine grid suffered a major supply issue, Ontario gas plants would make considerable monies by selling surplus gas capacity, at whatever the market rate is, to Maine utilities. If the plants doing that are owned by OPG, then Ontario ratepayers would benefit from that money going into the pocket of their public utility. If it's a private plant run/owned by TC or Enbridge, their shareholders would benefit.

I do like the idea of V2H, as I think it's a good "diversity of options" component to outage management. Saves firing up the generator for durations that support that, but I'd argue that you'd still want a backup genset, in the event that it's a major disaster like a Derecho or ice storm where it wouldn't be sufficient.

The issue I have with this inversion of responsibility, where the end user is expected to be part of the support framework for the grid infrastructure, at their own cost, is how easily the public has been convinced that this is an acceptable solution to underinvestment. And that they should for some reason not only find this acceptable, but be excited about it! Electricity is an essential service, like clean water. This is like your local water/sewer provider convincing their customers that they need to install wells to back-feed the water system, and their water rates are going to go up to manage this, but it's ultimately good, because this is "modern and progressive".

The worse spin on this is where governments are picking up the tabs for various costs of these programs, like solar CAPEX subsidies or FITs, which then not only hammer the ratepayers from a tax perspective (because it's still your money!) but also from a rates perspective (see: California). Ultimately, it would be cheaper for the government to use that same money to aide the utility in building new generating infrastructure, but that's seen as "archaic" and these utilities, which used to be concerned with their job: providing electricity reliably and affordably to the ratebase, are now captured by ideology and special interest groups whose main driver is something else.

 

[Brons2]

Or you buy a generator for $1,500?

The ice storm we had back in the spring that took out my wife's truck, we got a Generlink installed on day 3 (was using extension cords prior to that), I ran that generator for an entire week. There was no way V2G or a Powerwall/solar combo was going to work in its stead.

I'm not sure that powerwall's and other home battery solutions are an "important part of the future". I think they will be there, and they will fill a role, but their utility is often oversold and limitations glossed over as part of this "back to the future" inspired recasting of the devolution of power generation as "futuristic", ignoring, or ignorant of the fact that this is how it all began.

That society has managed to be convinced that a return to sun and sail; that the return to dependance on the vagaries of weather is somehow modernization, baffles, but then I think of the Malthusian bent against things like nuclear and "excessive abundance" and it makes total sense, it's the same FUD, just reimaged as "modern" and "progressive", as the environmental stuff wasn't enough.

I'm not saying a generator is a bad solution. That said...

What kind of generator are you going to get for $1500? Something you wheel out of your garage and hook up to the local natural gas supply? You're going to need soft starts for your AC/heat pump to make that work unless the generator can handle the inrush current, which with most generators in that price range, is doubtful.

A fully plumbed, fully automated solution with periodic test runs, automatic transfer swtich, and so forth is going to cost a lot more than that.

And what's it going to cost you to run it for a week on natural gas? On gasoline or diesel if that is the route?

During the 2021 crisis I mentioned, the flow of natural gas to homeowners was prioritized. But how many generators sucking the juice would it have taken to make this an issue?

 

[OVERKILL]

I'm not saying a generator is a bad solution. That said...

What kind of generator are you going to get for $1500? Something you wheel out of your garage and hook up to the local natural gas supply? You're going to need soft starts for your AC/heat pump to make that work unless the generator can handle the inrush current, which with most generators in that price range, is doubtful.

I actually have a surplus 7500W Generac I got from work for free, but I think it was about $1,500 when it was new? It hooks into a generlink with a single cord. It runs everything including my furnace (but would probably choke on the heat pump, even though it's an inverter style, which has low initial draw). So I have lights, internet, heat and I can cook and make coffee and the fridge and freezer run, which is good enough for the times that it gets used.

A fully plumbed, fully automated solution with periodic test runs, automatic transfer swtich, and so forth is going to cost a lot more than that.

Yes, you are looking at about $15K for a good sized unit like my parents are getting that is fully plumbed in and completely automated (about the same price as a Powerwall). They had to live in a hotel during the ice storm. We are getting a generlink at the cottage, dad snapped up a 7500W generator this summer that will work fine for that.

And what's it going to cost you to run it for a week on natural gas? On gasoline or diesel if that is the route?

If the issue of a natural gas shortage is real for you (which it was in Texas) then diesel is probably the best option, since it stores basically indefinitely. We were lucky that gasoline was still readily available after the ice storm, so we were OK for the week we ran the unit.

But as I said, there's no alternative to this. A battery and solar would not have worked, so it's generator or nothing. I use about 65kWh a day, even if I slashed that by 1/6th, a powerwall is lasting me basically 24hrs. Solar capacity factor is like 3-4% during the winter here, there isn't enough real estate on my property to make that a workable pairing, and that is the case for most city houses.

During the 2021 crisis I mentioned, the flow of natural gas to homeowners was prioritized. But how many generators sucking the juice would it have taken to make this an issue?

Which is why diesel would probably be a better choice there as the extended duration option.

 

[Brons2]

Your view is framed by ERCOT's configuration where you don't have surplus supply, as your system is very similar to Alberta's where everything, including installed capacity, is dictated by whether it's viable in the market. Ontario doesn't have demand exceeding supply, and, when the entire nuclear fleet is operational, our reserve capacity is staggering (it's tighter right now, due to the refurbishments). There are myriad grid configurations and I'm not convinced that the Texas "Free Market" approach is the best one. Quebec has some of the cheapest electricity in the world, and their grid is entirely vertically integrated.

We also don't have SHTF issues with pricing when there's a natural disaster or grid collapse, everything is regulated.

The issue I have with this inversion of responsibility, where the end user is expected to be part of the support framework for the grid infrastructure, at their own cost, is how easily the public has been convinced that this is an acceptable solution to underinvestment. And that they should for some reason not only find this acceptable, but be excited about it! Electricity is an essential service, like clean water. This is like your local water/sewer provider convincing their customers that they need to install wells to back-feed the water system, and their water rates are going to go up to manage this, but it's ultimately good, because this is "modern and progressive".

True what you say about ERCOT for the most part, but it's what I have to live with. Ironically people here complain when they are asked by ERCOT to conserve. Thankfully the PUC in Texas has demanded improvements to cold weather capabilites, which hopefully will help avoid a repeat of 2021. Opposite to that, unfortunately politicans in Texas seem to have taken to attacking renewable energy, without actually supporting other energy types to fill the gap beyond mere lip service. I expect that power prices will rise as a result.

Chronic underinvestment in public resources is a "feature" of the United States of America. Quite simply put it's max capitalism, if someone's not getting rich, the concept is viewed as flawed. To opine otherwise to these concepts gets you labeled. I view the desired state as a balance, but others view it as, the private market is always more efficient. It is what it is. You get the country you voted for.

I view V2G as "possibly helpful" to help keep my fellow American on power in grid shortage situations, given the state of chronic underinvestment, and am happy to do it if I am compensated fairly for it. But maybe V2H is more realistic, or just straight battery storage. This is pretty appealing:

 

[nomas]

Utility companies are not going to compensate you any more than the wholesale rate that they could get somewhere on the open market . Same as the solar .

 

[alarmguy]

Utility companies are not going to compensate you any more than the wholesale rate that they could get somewhere on the open market . Same as the solar .

Agree, Exactly the way it should be …

 

[OVERKILL]

True what you say about ERCOT for the most part, but it's what I have to live with. Ironically people here complain when they are asked by ERCOT to conserve. Thankfully the PUC in Texas has demanded improvements to cold weather capabilites, which hopefully will help avoid a repeat of 2021. Opposite to that, unfortunately politicans in Texas seem to have taken to attacking renewable energy, without actually supporting other energy types to fill the gap beyond mere lip service. I expect that power prices will rise as a result.

Yes, that's what happened in Alberta. Rates have finally come back down now that two new gas plants are online. Alberta/Texas are kindred spirits, lol, the province is the "Texas of the North".

Chronic underinvestment in public resources is a "feature" of the United States of America. Quite simply put it's max capitalism, if someone's not getting rich, the concept is viewed as flawed. To opine otherwise to these concepts gets you labeled. I view the desired state as a balance, but others view it as, the private market is always more efficient. It is what it is. You get the country you voted for.

Aye, but it's capitalism led by the invisible string of government, whose interventions are often ignored when these nods to "pure capitalism" are given. For example, government schemes like REC's and PPA's where the true cost of the service is obscured and "market" pricing is provided to claim how cheap it is. And then you get a news article about a cancelled project (like some of the offshore wind ones) where the true PPA cost is revealed and it's more expensive than Vogtle, lol, flipping the narrative. Capital flows to where it can create more capital, so if the government is "not so secretly" funneling money into certain areas, guaranteeing a return, that's where you are going to see investment.

Somewhat amusingly, the American nuclear fleet used to be awful performers. But, a nuke that churns out the max kWh is a more profitable nuke, and that led to a complete overhauling of the industry and the exceptional capacity factors the fleet now produces, when compared to peer plants in places like say France, where the cheapest possible electricity from them isn't a requirement. The US nuke system is very much the personification of the pure capitalist approach, since there were no subsidies. So, workforce size is optimized, plant downtime minimized, maintenance optimized...etc. But you still lost good performing plants due to cheap natural gas (TMI, Palisades...etc) and "whoopsies" that would have been absorbed as a "lesson to be learned" by other operators, like the botched steam generator replacement at SONGS, ends up killing the plant here. That's the scary part of running those super tight margins, when something does bugger up, there isn't sufficient buffer to absorb it.

In effect, there's a bit of a "cheap energy" paradox. We are told capitalism should deliver the cheapest possible electricity and socialism the most expensive, but California has some of the highest rates in the world, Quebec some of the cheapest, and California suffers from a significant lack of adequate supply while Quebec has a surplus.

Of course capitalism CAN deliver cheap electricity, but then you won't get clean electricity (regardless of what the VRE pluggers claim). You'll get gas, because there's nothing cheaper than CCGT's except maybe mine-to-mouth coal (see: China). Attempts to steer this away from where it naturally wants to go will drive up rates, unless you hide those costs like the Wizard of Oz in Federal schemes, but they are still in play and of course then you are no longer practicing pure capitalism.

I view V2G as "possibly helpful" to help keep my fellow American on power in grid shortage situations, given the state of chronic underinvestment, and am happy to do it if I am compensated fairly for it. But maybe V2H is more realistic, or just straight battery storage. This is pretty appealing:

V2H is definitely more realistic, people are selfish. Both are manifestations of that fact, but keeping your own lights on only imposes a cost on you, while supporting your neighbor has a price for that service. And that's fine, but that price will impact everyone if there is widespread adoption, due to the inherently poor economics of trying to use something designed for conveyance as a genset, and the capital cost of that asset and the impact on longevity this type of service will have on it. V2G is viewed as something that will be leaned on regularly in that inversion of responsibility I mentioned earlier, which means that, as a growing component of grid servicing, it would then add a considerable cost component to the overall structure.

 

[OVERKILL]

Utility companies are not going to compensate you any more than the wholesale rate that they could get somewhere on the open market . Same as the solar .

Well, ultimately that's where it ends up, but when there's agenda afoot, oftentimes that's not where it starts, see FIT's and Cali's NEM solar for example. And it's often not until things are well and truly buggered up as a result of these interventions that we get this sheepish "oh" and then a quiet reversal and move back to more sane policy, which sort of just steady-states you at that now buggered up point, because there's no undoing the damage.

 

[4WD]

Actually you’d be hard pressed to find 5 places more “all of the above” than Texas - I just stumbled into another wind farm and another solar farm by just taking a new route to the same place …