USUAL 8.8 Ford gear whine; RL Shockproof or LE1606
- Thread starter 10bears
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I should first mention that I've decided the whine probably first became noticeable during data logging - but specifically when I added UMI lwr control arms and relo brackets. The urethane bushings transmit more noise, so that was part of it.
Changes made since starting this thread:
Added a used set of "tuned damper weights" I picked up cheap; the ones in the pics above from the TSB on axle whine. Sound deadened under the back seat with 3 square feet of Dynamat Xtreme done patchwork as is typical with CLD mat. - pricy but it's all I could find locally.
So I made 2 changes at once. Oops.
Test drove 2 hours today. Changes in the axle whine are:
The range of highway speeds where the whine is audible is narrower. About 65 to 67 mph. That is a good improvement. Where the whine remains audible, it is only about 20% quieter from before.
While audible due to me locking my tonal memory on it excessively, few people would hear it or comment on it now.
But it is still there. I'm ordering a gallon of the LE 140w from "Speedy Bill" (Speedway Motors) now. I've had a lot of dealings with them over the years and they are nothing if not honest.
While Speedway may be parceling out gallons of the LE from drums and this may not be authorized by LE (I doubt that; if Bill is doing it, it is righteous), I am certain beyond doubt they are not counterfeiting.
I have 3 bottles of the horrific smelling Ford XL3 ltd slip friction modifier on the shelf. I don't think the LE 140 has LSD additive - so can anyone help me out here? How much of the XL3 should I start with in about 2.7 quarts of gear oil?
The LSD clutches in this axle are kinda' squawky, so I'm running about 8 ounces of the Amsoil additive right now in addition to what was already in the Amsoil 75w140 gear oil.
A big part of the reason I'm continuing hunting down this whine even though it is minimal now is to close the loop on this thread - and to return it to oil related topics!
TIA,
Micke
Changes made since starting this thread:
Added a used set of "tuned damper weights" I picked up cheap; the ones in the pics above from the TSB on axle whine. Sound deadened under the back seat with 3 square feet of Dynamat Xtreme done patchwork as is typical with CLD mat. - pricy but it's all I could find locally.
So I made 2 changes at once. Oops.
Test drove 2 hours today. Changes in the axle whine are:
The range of highway speeds where the whine is audible is narrower. About 65 to 67 mph. That is a good improvement. Where the whine remains audible, it is only about 20% quieter from before.
While audible due to me locking my tonal memory on it excessively, few people would hear it or comment on it now.
But it is still there. I'm ordering a gallon of the LE 140w from "Speedy Bill" (Speedway Motors) now. I've had a lot of dealings with them over the years and they are nothing if not honest.
While Speedway may be parceling out gallons of the LE from drums and this may not be authorized by LE (I doubt that; if Bill is doing it, it is righteous), I am certain beyond doubt they are not counterfeiting.
I have 3 bottles of the horrific smelling Ford XL3 ltd slip friction modifier on the shelf. I don't think the LE 140 has LSD additive - so can anyone help me out here? How much of the XL3 should I start with in about 2.7 quarts of gear oil?
The LSD clutches in this axle are kinda' squawky, so I'm running about 8 ounces of the Amsoil additive right now in addition to what was already in the Amsoil 75w140 gear oil.
A big part of the reason I'm continuing hunting down this whine even though it is minimal now is to close the loop on this thread - and to return it to oil related topics!
TIA,
Micke
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Indymac, I just now had some more time and followed that link you provided.
Some of the apparently more "problem solver" LE gear oils have pdf testimonials. I know testimonials aren't science so I'm not going to get too wound up about it just yet.
LE describes their 1600 series gear oils 1604 90w, 1605 110w (what you're using in your S2000?) and 1606 140w as automotive grade variable purpose gear oils also good for industrial apps.
1606 is listed as a paraffinic synthetic blend and appears to be a real problem solver in industry. Some apps have heat drop significantly and wear drop to near zero. Examples are given of electric motor current draw dropping by 24 percent indicating greatly reduced drag in the gearboxes they drive.
I'm not going to recap everything here, but the various highly happy industrial customers report things like large gear assemblies running 50 degrees cooler with no more stoppages due to thermal shutdown in hot months.
One really big gear set was identified through UOA as having a gear failure in progress. That is, great amounts of metal in the gear oil. Confirmed by sight and apparently some other testing, the manufacturer of the gears agreed they screwed up and would make replacement gears. However, these would take 6+ months to make... the gears melting down were estimated to fail in a couple weeks tops. LE's consultant assured the company that 1606 140w gear oil would buy them the 6 months running production at 24 hours a day that they needed.
Before the new gears could be installed, it was 9 months later of 24 hour a day operation and the defective gears were still running.
Other cases showed 1606 would run at extreme drain intervals safely done with periodic UOA's - mostly due to greatly reduced temps and no foaming when water got in - water is apparently inevitable in some of these weird industrial apps.
Anyway, again I'm not going to get too excited about testimonials as they can easily produce a skewed view of a product's properties and abilities.
Though if any of the above is true, I think I can see why Speedway would use it in an antique quick change differential in a Bonneville car doing 350 mph! Not that my 'stang will be on the salt flats anytime soon.
I'll report back on what 1606 does for my gear whine situation, if anything. I ordered a gallon from Speedway.
Micke
Some of the apparently more "problem solver" LE gear oils have pdf testimonials. I know testimonials aren't science so I'm not going to get too wound up about it just yet.
LE describes their 1600 series gear oils 1604 90w, 1605 110w (what you're using in your S2000?) and 1606 140w as automotive grade variable purpose gear oils also good for industrial apps.
1606 is listed as a paraffinic synthetic blend and appears to be a real problem solver in industry. Some apps have heat drop significantly and wear drop to near zero. Examples are given of electric motor current draw dropping by 24 percent indicating greatly reduced drag in the gearboxes they drive.
I'm not going to recap everything here, but the various highly happy industrial customers report things like large gear assemblies running 50 degrees cooler with no more stoppages due to thermal shutdown in hot months.
One really big gear set was identified through UOA as having a gear failure in progress. That is, great amounts of metal in the gear oil. Confirmed by sight and apparently some other testing, the manufacturer of the gears agreed they screwed up and would make replacement gears. However, these would take 6+ months to make... the gears melting down were estimated to fail in a couple weeks tops. LE's consultant assured the company that 1606 140w gear oil would buy them the 6 months running production at 24 hours a day that they needed.
Before the new gears could be installed, it was 9 months later of 24 hour a day operation and the defective gears were still running.
Other cases showed 1606 would run at extreme drain intervals safely done with periodic UOA's - mostly due to greatly reduced temps and no foaming when water got in - water is apparently inevitable in some of these weird industrial apps.
Anyway, again I'm not going to get too excited about testimonials as they can easily produce a skewed view of a product's properties and abilities.
Though if any of the above is true, I think I can see why Speedway would use it in an antique quick change differential in a Bonneville car doing 350 mph! Not that my 'stang will be on the salt flats anytime soon.
I'll report back on what 1606 does for my gear whine situation, if anything. I ordered a gallon from Speedway.
Micke
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I have no doubt that the Duolec series will protect better than any other gear oil on the market. The in house testing they've done, the UOA's I've seen and done, and the testimonials that you mentioned are very impressive. I know LE is very excited about this product. Many LE607 Almasol fans were dissapointed to see it's demise, but are probably converted now (Mag-Hytec was one of them). I know I am fully converted with 1605.
I suspect and hope that Speedway is a legitimate re-bottler of LE bulk gear oil. It is a nice convenience for a customer that can't afford to shell out for a 5 gallon pail or 24 qt case from LE direct, or maybe they just can't use that much. I wouldn't mind buying a gallon of 1606 just for my S2000. And maybe a gallon of 1604 for my new 4Runner. There is a company just down the street from me (National Sealants and Lubricants) that re-bottles bulk aviation lubricants for general aviation customers. They are legit.
I hope the 1606 cures the whine. But if it doesn't, your gears will last a long time! Keep us posted.
I suspect and hope that Speedway is a legitimate re-bottler of LE bulk gear oil. It is a nice convenience for a customer that can't afford to shell out for a 5 gallon pail or 24 qt case from LE direct, or maybe they just can't use that much. I wouldn't mind buying a gallon of 1606 just for my S2000. And maybe a gallon of 1604 for my new 4Runner. There is a company just down the street from me (National Sealants and Lubricants) that re-bottles bulk aviation lubricants for general aviation customers. They are legit.
I hope the 1606 cures the whine. But if it doesn't, your gears will last a long time! Keep us posted.
Indymac, thank you for your input; good to know. There is some verbiage in LE's website suggesting Duolec is the replacement and next generation from the Almasol line. They stop short of saying whether they think it is improved or not.
Any suggestions for how much Ford XL-3 limited slip additive I should start with in 2.7 quarts of the LE1606?
Thanks!
Any suggestions for how much Ford XL-3 limited slip additive I should start with in 2.7 quarts of the LE1606?
Thanks!
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Yes, the Duolec series replaced the Almasol series industrial gear oils. LE 1605 SAE 110 is a direct replacement for the pre J306 LE 607 SAE 90. The Almasol additive is a solid powder (Al based?) that could be filtered out after awhile with hydraulic filters. So they formulated Duolec and complied with the current SAE J306 viscosity ratings for labeling. They still make one Almasol gear oil that is pure mineral based, for applications that require that chemistry. I forgot the product number though.
There is a guy out in Las Vegas who claims to be a gear/diff builder for drag racers. He says he only uses LE 607 in his diffs. Says he's never seen one fail with less than 100K miles. Somehow, he is able to still source 607 through the local LV LE warehouse.
LE told a dodge owner that he wouldn't need any LS additive in 1605. Maybe you won't need any either? None of my diffs are clutch type LSD (only open, Torsen LSD, and Gov-Lock). Give LE a call and ask for Steve Mauritz. He should be able to answer any of your questions.
There is a guy out in Las Vegas who claims to be a gear/diff builder for drag racers. He says he only uses LE 607 in his diffs. Says he's never seen one fail with less than 100K miles. Somehow, he is able to still source 607 through the local LV LE warehouse.
LE told a dodge owner that he wouldn't need any LS additive in 1605. Maybe you won't need any either? None of my diffs are clutch type LSD (only open, Torsen LSD, and Gov-Lock). Give LE a call and ask for Steve Mauritz. He should be able to answer any of your questions.
Indymac, good info. Thanks again!
My 2006 did NOT receive the TSB update for the squawking limited slip diff clutches, so as mentioned before, it still groans some on tight turns even with 8 oz of the Amsoil LSD (not psychodelic ;-) additive. That is too much additive - especially with what is in the Amsoil gear oil to begin with. So I have to admit my LSD clutches are boffo.
Slight metal "fur" starts showing up on the fill plug magnet sooner than I would like. That ain't science, but us mechs try to follow instincts and warning bells are going off for me. I know it is the LSD clutches as the TSB says the metal plates start "flaking" and making a lot of metal when consistently making this noise.
I've surfed it pretty good; some people get temporary reduction or elimination of the groaning LSD noise with gear oil and additive change. Looks like it only keeps for the long term for 1 in 3 or thereabouts.
What does this have to do with this thread? Well, I don't know if the failing LSD and metal it is creating might have contributed to the gear whine but it seems possible. Plus, I'm tired of the embarrassing squawking noise on tight turns. People make comments like: "What the bleep was that?". Kinda' sounds like the car has a GI problem when it does this. Har.
So I just ordered the updated Ford Racing carbon fiber clutch kit from American Muscle ($109 US) and will install that while I have the cover off. No big deal.
I read the TSB instructions and they want the carbon fiber clutches soaked in 100% XL-3 Ford LSD friction modifier for 15 minutes before installation. They caution that the XL-3 used for this must be thrown away and NOT used in the gear oil.
They spec placing one new bottle of XL-3 in the gear oil after the clutches are installed.
So above is another variable I'm throwing into the mix. With the widespread diff clutch failures in 8.8's, could that metal contribute to the ubiquitous whine problems? I don't know. I'm doing it mainly to get rid of the awful squawking on tight turns.
Micke
My 2006 did NOT receive the TSB update for the squawking limited slip diff clutches, so as mentioned before, it still groans some on tight turns even with 8 oz of the Amsoil LSD (not psychodelic ;-) additive. That is too much additive - especially with what is in the Amsoil gear oil to begin with. So I have to admit my LSD clutches are boffo.
Slight metal "fur" starts showing up on the fill plug magnet sooner than I would like. That ain't science, but us mechs try to follow instincts and warning bells are going off for me. I know it is the LSD clutches as the TSB says the metal plates start "flaking" and making a lot of metal when consistently making this noise.
I've surfed it pretty good; some people get temporary reduction or elimination of the groaning LSD noise with gear oil and additive change. Looks like it only keeps for the long term for 1 in 3 or thereabouts.
What does this have to do with this thread? Well, I don't know if the failing LSD and metal it is creating might have contributed to the gear whine but it seems possible. Plus, I'm tired of the embarrassing squawking noise on tight turns. People make comments like: "What the bleep was that?". Kinda' sounds like the car has a GI problem when it does this. Har.
So I just ordered the updated Ford Racing carbon fiber clutch kit from American Muscle ($109 US) and will install that while I have the cover off. No big deal.
I read the TSB instructions and they want the carbon fiber clutches soaked in 100% XL-3 Ford LSD friction modifier for 15 minutes before installation. They caution that the XL-3 used for this must be thrown away and NOT used in the gear oil.
They spec placing one new bottle of XL-3 in the gear oil after the clutches are installed.
So above is another variable I'm throwing into the mix. With the widespread diff clutch failures in 8.8's, could that metal contribute to the ubiquitous whine problems? I don't know. I'm doing it mainly to get rid of the awful squawking on tight turns.
Micke
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My Eaton Posi with carbon fiber clutches also 'squawks' and groans on low speed, tight, 'off-power' turns, and my ring and pinion also whines like a banshee at highway speeds.
The low-speed, coasting turn noises went away after I switched back to the XL-3 fluid exclusively (from Amsoil's and Red Line's additives, even in LARGE quantities!).
That did not help the highway screaming at all (the LAT gear oil helped that just a little bit).
I will try the LE 1606 from Speedway next change. Who knows, it might just work!
The low-speed, coasting turn noises went away after I switched back to the XL-3 fluid exclusively (from Amsoil's and Red Line's additives, even in LARGE quantities!).
That did not help the highway screaming at all (the LAT gear oil helped that just a little bit).
I will try the LE 1606 from Speedway next change. Who knows, it might just work!
dd,
Good to know. I hope you'll post back if you try 1606 whether the news is good or bad.
I'm a bit disappointed in Speedway; I know the ad says will ship in 24 to 48 hours - but that is kinda' slow for those guys.
I probably should've tried the XL-3 first. But with all the metal my diff clutches are making and with the TSB warning of flaking clutch steels in there, I thought I should go ahead with it.
'Course an Eaton POSI and a Ford trac-lok are 2 different critters, too! ;-)
Sorry to hear you have highway screaming. Mine was minor whine and I've already cancelled 75 percent of it with changing out sheared "metalized?" gear oil, weights, sound deadening.
I doubt a scream can be fixed with oil, but maybe it can be reduced?? Opinions vary a lot on that topic, eh?!
Best of luck,
Micke
Good to know. I hope you'll post back if you try 1606 whether the news is good or bad.
I'm a bit disappointed in Speedway; I know the ad says will ship in 24 to 48 hours - but that is kinda' slow for those guys.
I probably should've tried the XL-3 first. But with all the metal my diff clutches are making and with the TSB warning of flaking clutch steels in there, I thought I should go ahead with it.
'Course an Eaton POSI and a Ford trac-lok are 2 different critters, too! ;-)
Sorry to hear you have highway screaming. Mine was minor whine and I've already cancelled 75 percent of it with changing out sheared "metalized?" gear oil, weights, sound deadening.
I doubt a scream can be fixed with oil, but maybe it can be reduced?? Opinions vary a lot on that topic, eh?!
Best of luck,
Micke
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The LE1606 is in a generic white gallon jug with a UPC sticker on the side that says LE140w and Speedway's part number.
The pic in the website shows an LE blue color gallon jug.
What I take from this is: It is probably being parceled out from drums. I don't have a problem with that.
After sitting in the sun all day in 78 degree weather (so not terribly hot) shaking the gallon jug of this synth blend "feels" more like synth blend gear lubes and not watery like RP or Amsoil 75w140 synths. Not that this means anything at all, just an observation.
Notably, it does NOT feel ultra thick or almost gelled like old school conventional gear oils frequently were.
While not leaking and sealed in a ziploc bag, there is an odor and it is a bit strong. Not as hideous as XL-3 or anything, but like old school gear oil smelled.
The pic in the website shows an LE blue color gallon jug.
What I take from this is: It is probably being parceled out from drums. I don't have a problem with that.
After sitting in the sun all day in 78 degree weather (so not terribly hot) shaking the gallon jug of this synth blend "feels" more like synth blend gear lubes and not watery like RP or Amsoil 75w140 synths. Not that this means anything at all, just an observation.
Notably, it does NOT feel ultra thick or almost gelled like old school conventional gear oils frequently were.
While not leaking and sealed in a ziploc bag, there is an odor and it is a bit strong. Not as hideous as XL-3 or anything, but like old school gear oil smelled.
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...that doesn't fully cover the smell... there is a strong hint reminding me of some peanuts the cat coughed up...
Apologies for the ugly visual. Just want to be accurate. ;-)
I'm guessing there are some odd proprietary ingredients in there.. or maybe this is why there are no cats or peanuts within miles of the LE plant?
Apologies for the ugly visual. Just want to be accurate. ;-)
I'm guessing there are some odd proprietary ingredients in there.. or maybe this is why there are no cats or peanuts within miles of the LE plant?
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An s197 forum good guy - Kevin (screen name kevinatfms) - brought me up to speed on the many trac-lok clutch rebuilds he has used up in his autocrossed Mustang.
What I learned:
Several think the more expensive FRPP carbon clutches do not hold up as well as conventional friction material. Kevin is of this mind and feels pretty strongly about it having used up carbon clutches all too quickly.
Kevin suggested going from 3 conventional frictions per side to 4 conventional frictions per side (a common and well known hotrod mod) using this stack orientation:
Gear - SHIM - friction - steel - friction - steel - friction - steel - friction - SHIM
But with the understanding that one must be careful to make sure all of the clutch pack related splines fully engage the side gear. And obviously, this revised stack will have to allow the spider gears and cross pin to fit with acceptable minimum clearance. I think kev said axle to cross pin can't go less than .0045".
Autocross abuse far exceeds anything I'll ever do to my car, so Kevin's arrangement should last me a very long time. So I'll be returning the carbon clutches and installing the conventional clutches plus 1 reused friction per side to arrive at 4.
Just to get rid of the LSD groaning, I obviously didn't need to upgrade; just thought I would while I have it apart.
Plan is to do it this weekend; so I might report back on the LE1606 and gear whine next week.
Stay tuned..
Micke
What I learned:
Several think the more expensive FRPP carbon clutches do not hold up as well as conventional friction material. Kevin is of this mind and feels pretty strongly about it having used up carbon clutches all too quickly.
Kevin suggested going from 3 conventional frictions per side to 4 conventional frictions per side (a common and well known hotrod mod) using this stack orientation:
Gear - SHIM - friction - steel - friction - steel - friction - steel - friction - SHIM
But with the understanding that one must be careful to make sure all of the clutch pack related splines fully engage the side gear. And obviously, this revised stack will have to allow the spider gears and cross pin to fit with acceptable minimum clearance. I think kev said axle to cross pin can't go less than .0045".
Autocross abuse far exceeds anything I'll ever do to my car, so Kevin's arrangement should last me a very long time. So I'll be returning the carbon clutches and installing the conventional clutches plus 1 reused friction per side to arrive at 4.
Just to get rid of the LSD groaning, I obviously didn't need to upgrade; just thought I would while I have it apart.
Plan is to do it this weekend; so I might report back on the LE1606 and gear whine next week.
Stay tuned..
Micke
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10bears
I replaced the fluid as per the bulletin with the Ford FM and all the chatter disappeared but the whine remains.
Seems to be no cure for the whine.
Good luck
I replaced the fluid as per the bulletin with the Ford FM and all the chatter disappeared but the whine remains.
Seems to be no cure for the whine.
Good luck
Originally Posted By: dxbMercury
10bears
I replaced the fluid as per the bulletin with the Ford FM and all the chatter disappeared but the whine remains.
Seems to be no cure for the whine.
Good luck
In addition, from what I read on the Mercury/Explorer fora, it's only the Ford FM that does the job. One OP tried almost every other FM, but the chatter only disappeared once the Ford FM went in.
10bears
I replaced the fluid as per the bulletin with the Ford FM and all the chatter disappeared but the whine remains.
Seems to be no cure for the whine.
Good luck
In addition, from what I read on the Mercury/Explorer fora, it's only the Ford FM that does the job. One OP tried almost every other FM, but the chatter only disappeared once the Ford FM went in.
Originally Posted By: 10bears
Hey, dd:
Couple of questions: What is LAT gear oil? Does it have friction modifier in it supposedly? How much XL-3 did you have to add?
Thanks!
10b
L.A.T. (Lubeatech) products used to be available from Jegs, but not any more.
They are no harder to find than LE stuff though, but must also be mail-ordered from small online retailers/distributors.
Their gear oils contain NO limited slip friction modifiers whatsoever, one of the reasons I went ahead and added 8 ounces of the XL-3 (the other being this thing will squawk like a stuck goose on low speed, coasting, sharp turns with only 4 ounces, even in a gear oil which claims to have FM already in it!!)
Lubeatech a small, specialty, racing lubricant ONLY company based in Fullerton, Ca.
They claim to use ONLY group 4 and group 5 basestocks in ALL of their products, along with very high quality anti-wear/friction reducing additives.
BTW; is Ford still using the Trac Loc diffs in the new 'Coyote'-engined Stangs, or did they go to a high bias Torsen/worm gear style diff??
They are EXORBITANTLY priced, but I believe that Quaife makes a high bias, worm gear/Torsen style diff for the 8.8s, if you want to suggest that to the S197 autocrosser (it HAS TO BE better for his uses than a more drag racing/street style clutch pack diff!
)
Hey, dd:
Couple of questions: What is LAT gear oil? Does it have friction modifier in it supposedly? How much XL-3 did you have to add?
Thanks!
10b
L.A.T. (Lubeatech) products used to be available from Jegs, but not any more.
They are no harder to find than LE stuff though, but must also be mail-ordered from small online retailers/distributors.
Their gear oils contain NO limited slip friction modifiers whatsoever, one of the reasons I went ahead and added 8 ounces of the XL-3 (the other being this thing will squawk like a stuck goose on low speed, coasting, sharp turns with only 4 ounces, even in a gear oil which claims to have FM already in it!!)
Lubeatech a small, specialty, racing lubricant ONLY company based in Fullerton, Ca.
They claim to use ONLY group 4 and group 5 basestocks in ALL of their products, along with very high quality anti-wear/friction reducing additives.
BTW; is Ford still using the Trac Loc diffs in the new 'Coyote'-engined Stangs, or did they go to a high bias Torsen/worm gear style diff??
They are EXORBITANTLY priced, but I believe that Quaife makes a high bias, worm gear/Torsen style diff for the 8.8s, if you want to suggest that to the S197 autocrosser (it HAS TO BE better for his uses than a more drag racing/street style clutch pack diff!
I haven't updated this thread in awhile and thought I should do so.
The main update: I have not tried the LE1606 yet and I will not have direct comparison for noise when I do. If you are short on time, that's it in a nutshell.
Details of why the above if you're curious about the ongoing saga:
As expensive as all these gear oils were adding up to, I thought I'd better do some quick diagnostics before going any farther down a potentially blind alley:
I did some diagnostics on my 8.8 Ford axle asy. I found the pinion bearings no longer had any preload; was able to measure about .0005" (half a thousandth) side slop.
Next, I marked the gears with GM yellow gear marking compound. This indicated that the pinion depth was off; possibly about .005" or five thousandths high or more.
The two above items fully explain the noise; in fact, I'm surprised it wasn't worse.
This is with only 25,000 miles on the car, so this was a botched differential setup by Ford.
I decided that with all those fairly high powered data logging pulls with things this far out, the gear set almost certainly now has a wear pattern on it that will always mean it will be noisy.
So I dismantled the axle asy and am presently installing FRPP 3.73:1 ratio gears. Thought I'd give the ratio a bump while I was at it. These are NOT the dreaded N suffix gears once sold by Ford but actually made in the aftermarket.
These gears ARE made by Ford in the US, so they should not necessarily be condemned to gear noise like the N suffix 3.73's reportedly were.
Disassembly showed a very uneven wear pattern on the forward pinion bearing's "cup" or outer race. This is because it was operating with some side slop; tapered bearings require preload or they will damage themselves.
I must be half deaf to have thought that whine was very minor; either that, or my attempts to attenuate the noise with DynaMat Xtreme, whine TSB weights and other measures must have been doing a stellar job! 'Cause this diff was set up VERY poorly and should have been screaming like a stuck pig.
I will still report back later on the LE1606. As long as it is available, it will be my gear oil of choice for this 8.8 including as break in oil for the first 500 miles or so.
My observations will be entirely subjective since I will no longer have direct comparison; that is, the axle is being fully revised so I will not be able to compare LE1606 to Amsoil 75w140 in the same noisy axle setup.
Micke
The main update: I have not tried the LE1606 yet and I will not have direct comparison for noise when I do. If you are short on time, that's it in a nutshell.
Details of why the above if you're curious about the ongoing saga:
As expensive as all these gear oils were adding up to, I thought I'd better do some quick diagnostics before going any farther down a potentially blind alley:
I did some diagnostics on my 8.8 Ford axle asy. I found the pinion bearings no longer had any preload; was able to measure about .0005" (half a thousandth) side slop.
Next, I marked the gears with GM yellow gear marking compound. This indicated that the pinion depth was off; possibly about .005" or five thousandths high or more.
The two above items fully explain the noise; in fact, I'm surprised it wasn't worse.
This is with only 25,000 miles on the car, so this was a botched differential setup by Ford.
I decided that with all those fairly high powered data logging pulls with things this far out, the gear set almost certainly now has a wear pattern on it that will always mean it will be noisy.
So I dismantled the axle asy and am presently installing FRPP 3.73:1 ratio gears. Thought I'd give the ratio a bump while I was at it. These are NOT the dreaded N suffix gears once sold by Ford but actually made in the aftermarket.
These gears ARE made by Ford in the US, so they should not necessarily be condemned to gear noise like the N suffix 3.73's reportedly were.
Disassembly showed a very uneven wear pattern on the forward pinion bearing's "cup" or outer race. This is because it was operating with some side slop; tapered bearings require preload or they will damage themselves.
I must be half deaf to have thought that whine was very minor; either that, or my attempts to attenuate the noise with DynaMat Xtreme, whine TSB weights and other measures must have been doing a stellar job! 'Cause this diff was set up VERY poorly and should have been screaming like a stuck pig.
I will still report back later on the LE1606. As long as it is available, it will be my gear oil of choice for this 8.8 including as break in oil for the first 500 miles or so.
My observations will be entirely subjective since I will no longer have direct comparison; that is, the axle is being fully revised so I will not be able to compare LE1606 to Amsoil 75w140 in the same noisy axle setup.
Micke
Added note about LSD "groaning" or chatter on tight low speed turns:
Tear down revealed that this 'stang had the carbon fiber clutch plates. So it likely received the TSB for axle groan/chatter.
This TSB would be done if the dealer added a bottle of XL-3 Ford friction modifier and the additive did NOT remove the noise. OR, it would be done if a lot of metal was found in the gear oil accompanying the groan.
This diff was producing metal flakes. What I found:
The .030" shim from the left side and all the steels were wearing nicely as they should be. The steels from the right side were also just fine. - However, the .025" shim from the right side was badly flaking/galling etc.
Suspected cause: When I put the Royal Purple MaxGear 85w140 gear oil in the axle after I first purchased the car used, the groaning began shortly thereafter.
But I did not add friction modifier due to dozens of sources crowing about how RP already has fm in it. I let the groaning go on for too long and something finally failed; the right side shim failed.
In added research, I learned this: IF Royal Purple or Amsoil or any other synth gear oil that supposedly has fm causes groaning or chatter, added fm should be installed -- and don't wait a year like I did or damage might result.
Next, quite a few sources highly suggest using ONLY Ford XL-3 friction modifier if the aforementioned groaning/chatter problem develops. Sources indicate that the Amsoil and CRC additives I installed frequently won't help a Ford diff clutch set once it becomes noisy.
Not that it matters since my axle build was botched by Ford anyway, but if I had the fm thing to do again, I would first off do it as soon as the groaning developed. Next, I would start with half a bottle of XL-3; give it a couple weeks of driving with the occasional low speed figure 8 in a parking lot; if still groaning, install the other half of the bottle of XL-3.
There is another Ford friction modifier; I think it is XL-7 and is marketed for usage in synth gear oils. But nobody seems to be suggesting it much; looks like the butter zone is the good old "stinks bad as a skunk" XL-3.
An alternate cause to the above could be: The .025" shim might not have been replaced during the TSB update. I'm not sure, but I think any of the original smooth steel parts (shims OR steels) might suffer flaking/galling failure, hence that TSB.
Opinions certainly vary on any of the above; it's why there are websites like BITOG. So my disclaimer is: Above is just one guy's take on it.
Other opinions invited and respected.
Micke
Tear down revealed that this 'stang had the carbon fiber clutch plates. So it likely received the TSB for axle groan/chatter.
This TSB would be done if the dealer added a bottle of XL-3 Ford friction modifier and the additive did NOT remove the noise. OR, it would be done if a lot of metal was found in the gear oil accompanying the groan.
This diff was producing metal flakes. What I found:
The .030" shim from the left side and all the steels were wearing nicely as they should be. The steels from the right side were also just fine. - However, the .025" shim from the right side was badly flaking/galling etc.
Suspected cause: When I put the Royal Purple MaxGear 85w140 gear oil in the axle after I first purchased the car used, the groaning began shortly thereafter.
But I did not add friction modifier due to dozens of sources crowing about how RP already has fm in it. I let the groaning go on for too long and something finally failed; the right side shim failed.
In added research, I learned this: IF Royal Purple or Amsoil or any other synth gear oil that supposedly has fm causes groaning or chatter, added fm should be installed -- and don't wait a year like I did or damage might result.
Next, quite a few sources highly suggest using ONLY Ford XL-3 friction modifier if the aforementioned groaning/chatter problem develops. Sources indicate that the Amsoil and CRC additives I installed frequently won't help a Ford diff clutch set once it becomes noisy.
Not that it matters since my axle build was botched by Ford anyway, but if I had the fm thing to do again, I would first off do it as soon as the groaning developed. Next, I would start with half a bottle of XL-3; give it a couple weeks of driving with the occasional low speed figure 8 in a parking lot; if still groaning, install the other half of the bottle of XL-3.
There is another Ford friction modifier; I think it is XL-7 and is marketed for usage in synth gear oils. But nobody seems to be suggesting it much; looks like the butter zone is the good old "stinks bad as a skunk" XL-3.
An alternate cause to the above could be: The .025" shim might not have been replaced during the TSB update. I'm not sure, but I think any of the original smooth steel parts (shims OR steels) might suffer flaking/galling failure, hence that TSB.
Opinions certainly vary on any of the above; it's why there are websites like BITOG. So my disclaimer is: Above is just one guy's take on it.
Other opinions invited and respected.
Micke
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Thanks for the update. You were wise to do what you did. Probably saved yourself some moola and an embarrassing, expensive and catastrophic failure.
It's real easy to fall into the trap of thinking (hoping really) that something in the bottle is going to fix a mechanical problem. In your case, nothing like that would have fixed it and it would have gotten worse and worse .
You are right that if you have chatter, you need to address it ASAP, but I would still advise folks to see if they can do without if the oil blender says it may not need any. The oil is better without the FMs in it, but if they need it, the NEED it!
Good luck with your new gears and let us know how it worls out.
It's real easy to fall into the trap of thinking (hoping really) that something in the bottle is going to fix a mechanical problem. In your case, nothing like that would have fixed it and it would have gotten worse and worse .
You are right that if you have chatter, you need to address it ASAP, but I would still advise folks to see if they can do without if the oil blender says it may not need any. The oil is better without the FMs in it, but if they need it, the NEED it!
Good luck with your new gears and let us know how it worls out.
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