Speedway does not list this stuff in their printed catalog which I just recieved.
I'm guessing one must call them up and ask for it by name/number??
I'm guessing one must call them up and ask for it by name/number??
USUAL 8.8 Ford gear whine; RL Shockproof or LE1606
- Thread starter 10bears
- Start date
- Status
Micke S.
Degreed & Cert'd ASE Master Tech - retired for 9 years now.
Im a dumb journeyman Transmission lineman. Sorry I missed some stuff in your thread. I have put together a few rearends. The first one howled and growled but Im good at it now. Us lineman read at about fifth grade, good thing a person can copy and paste.
The 10 bolt in my nova made so much noise, I even tried the infamous lucas heavy duty stabilizer in it. Ha Ha. Could not believe it handled a supercharged 350 with out a falure.
Degreed & Cert'd ASE Master Tech - retired for 9 years now.
Im a dumb journeyman Transmission lineman. Sorry I missed some stuff in your thread. I have put together a few rearends. The first one howled and growled but Im good at it now. Us lineman read at about fifth grade, good thing a person can copy and paste.
The 10 bolt in my nova made so much noise, I even tried the infamous lucas heavy duty stabilizer in it. Ha Ha. Could not believe it handled a supercharged 350 with out a falure.
Highline9,
No worries.
To all:
Slight whine came back at 200 miles. Common wisdom is that things can be reset somewhat up to 500 miles light usage; after that, the gear pattern may be too deep to save it.
So, I blew the axle asy apart again. Pinion bearing outer races looked... well, probably ok, but far too much wear for just 200 miles even considering break in. Too rough. Conversely, the wear finish on the ring gear teeth looked spectacularly good.
Noted that hot oil drain seemed very thick. Even after draining for an hour, another half quart came out overnight. Also, axles were still thickly coated the next day - like a huge coating on them. 1/8"??
My theory: I think LE1606 140w is probably an exceptional gear oil for its intended applications. However, I think it may be too thick to cross over to this particular 8.8 Ford app.
That is: This oil flows very slowly so at road speed, I'm guessing it gets flung away by the ring gear... or maybe a channel is grooved into the thick of it around the ring gear. Maybe doesn't flow into the pinion bearings fast enough. Climbing qualities look good and I would expect that to allow even thick oil to get slung up and over into the large port in the casting intended to keep the pinion bearing oiled, I dunno.
Modern bearings ain't what they used to be. So I'm gonna try it again with new pinion bearings and setup.
Question for Jim Allen or IndyMac or others if you know definitively:
Opinions are varying wildly about whether pinion bearings should be dry or oiled with just a drop or oiled with motor oil (etc etc) prior to final pinion bearing preload/crush sleeve setup.
Anyone have the good word on this? Jim Allen, IndyMac.. anyone? I set them up drenched in gear oil and this may have skewed the readings compared to how Ford assembled their preload recommendations.
I note that Richmond Gear says to oil the pinion bearings in motor oil prior to setting up preload.
One other thing: I wasn't thrilled with gear wear pattern, so I did marking compound again. I then added another .002" pinion shim and it is a much better pattern.
FWIW, the LE1606 might work great in an antique streamliner diff, but I don't currently recommend it for an 8.8.
I think IndyMac's recommendation of LE1605 would be smarter.
Because I'm jumpy about pinion bearing break-in under new pinion bearing pre-load, I'm going to use Amsoil 75w140 at least for break in. Might go to LE1605 later, I don't know.
OTOH, if it is NOISELESS with the Amsoil, I might continue with that.
Micke
No worries.
To all:
Slight whine came back at 200 miles. Common wisdom is that things can be reset somewhat up to 500 miles light usage; after that, the gear pattern may be too deep to save it.
So, I blew the axle asy apart again. Pinion bearing outer races looked... well, probably ok, but far too much wear for just 200 miles even considering break in. Too rough. Conversely, the wear finish on the ring gear teeth looked spectacularly good.
Noted that hot oil drain seemed very thick. Even after draining for an hour, another half quart came out overnight. Also, axles were still thickly coated the next day - like a huge coating on them. 1/8"??
My theory: I think LE1606 140w is probably an exceptional gear oil for its intended applications. However, I think it may be too thick to cross over to this particular 8.8 Ford app.
That is: This oil flows very slowly so at road speed, I'm guessing it gets flung away by the ring gear... or maybe a channel is grooved into the thick of it around the ring gear. Maybe doesn't flow into the pinion bearings fast enough. Climbing qualities look good and I would expect that to allow even thick oil to get slung up and over into the large port in the casting intended to keep the pinion bearing oiled, I dunno.
Modern bearings ain't what they used to be. So I'm gonna try it again with new pinion bearings and setup.
Question for Jim Allen or IndyMac or others if you know definitively:
Opinions are varying wildly about whether pinion bearings should be dry or oiled with just a drop or oiled with motor oil (etc etc) prior to final pinion bearing preload/crush sleeve setup.
Anyone have the good word on this? Jim Allen, IndyMac.. anyone? I set them up drenched in gear oil and this may have skewed the readings compared to how Ford assembled their preload recommendations.
I note that Richmond Gear says to oil the pinion bearings in motor oil prior to setting up preload.
One other thing: I wasn't thrilled with gear wear pattern, so I did marking compound again. I then added another .002" pinion shim and it is a much better pattern.
FWIW, the LE1606 might work great in an antique streamliner diff, but I don't currently recommend it for an 8.8.
I think IndyMac's recommendation of LE1605 would be smarter.
Because I'm jumpy about pinion bearing break-in under new pinion bearing pre-load, I'm going to use Amsoil 75w140 at least for break in. Might go to LE1605 later, I don't know.
OTOH, if it is NOISELESS with the Amsoil, I might continue with that.
Micke
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One other note: There is a new Ford pinion nut/sleeve kit that comes as a matched pair for about 8 bucks from Tousley.
It comes with a bulletin saying that Ford has upgraded to a thicker sleeve for all 7.5 and 8.8 diffs.
I've gotta tell ya', even pre-crushed, that new double thickness crush sleeve is BEYOND abusive to get crushed under the car.
I'm putting it back together with either an old style Ford crush sleeve or a Ratech Smart Sleeve because there is NO WAY I can pull that kind of massive torque under a car on jack stands again. I ended up with strains and muscle tears even knowing how to apply a lot of torque.
I personally don't use a rattle wrench for pinion bearing preload, but when pre-crushing the sleeve away from the car, an Ingersol Rand "Thunder Gun" wouldn't even touch it.
On a lift with a 6 foot cheater bar? Yeah, maybe I'd use the new fat sleeve then.
Just sayin', depending on your circumstances, you may not want to try the new massive crush sleeve. I'm reasonably certain I dropped my IQ by 30 points by crushing that monster.
It comes with a bulletin saying that Ford has upgraded to a thicker sleeve for all 7.5 and 8.8 diffs.
I've gotta tell ya', even pre-crushed, that new double thickness crush sleeve is BEYOND abusive to get crushed under the car.
I'm putting it back together with either an old style Ford crush sleeve or a Ratech Smart Sleeve because there is NO WAY I can pull that kind of massive torque under a car on jack stands again. I ended up with strains and muscle tears even knowing how to apply a lot of torque.
I personally don't use a rattle wrench for pinion bearing preload, but when pre-crushing the sleeve away from the car, an Ingersol Rand "Thunder Gun" wouldn't even touch it.
On a lift with a 6 foot cheater bar? Yeah, maybe I'd use the new fat sleeve then.
Just sayin', depending on your circumstances, you may not want to try the new massive crush sleeve. I'm reasonably certain I dropped my IQ by 30 points by crushing that monster.
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I'm really not qualified to answer your build-up questions 10bears. But Jim certainly is.
As far as 1606 causing a bad wear pattern, I would lean towards no. Yes, it is thick like any SAE 140 gear oil. But if it can flow without channeling, it will climb and protect the gears. I don't know exactly what the channel point is for 1606, but it's probably well below 0F.
Hopefully, someone better qualified can give you some pointers related to the build.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
As far as 1606 causing a bad wear pattern, I would lean towards no. Yes, it is thick like any SAE 140 gear oil. But if it can flow without channeling, it will climb and protect the gears. I don't know exactly what the channel point is for 1606, but it's probably well below 0F.
Hopefully, someone better qualified can give you some pointers related to the build.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
Bearing preload settings are designed around 90 grade gear oil (unless the manual says different and it doesn't in this case). Using anything different can skew the readings. In my experience, it's not by much unless you go way to extremes (such as really light oil or bearing grease) but if you want pinpoint accuracy, use a conventional 90 grade gear oil (multigrade is OK). If you used an exceptionally thick gear oil for setup, it's possible you could have ended up with the preloads a little light (it would depend on ambient temp) but I kinda doubt you would have ended up below the minimum spec. That would be an interesting experiment, to set up using various products and then wash the bearings out and recheck with the proper stuff.
Forget the crush sleeves. Go to a crush sleeve eliminator kit and save yourself. Google Randy's Ring and Pinion or Yukon Gear. They have them. I've used them. They also have supershim kits for the carrier bearings which I absolutely love. The solid shims add a little to durability as well, as sudden high torque loads can compress the crush sleeve slightly and reduce preload. With shim kits, I like to set up at the tight end of the spec.
Here's a tip on crush sleeves, though. Measure the thickness of the old crush sleeve. Take the new one to a press and crush it in the press to near the distance of the old sleeve but not quite. The initial crush is the hardest part. It goes easier after if you install it partly crushed. There is a degree of experimentation with this as to how much you crush it, so have a spare one just in case. You can't uncrush 'em ( : < ).
Forget the crush sleeves. Go to a crush sleeve eliminator kit and save yourself. Google Randy's Ring and Pinion or Yukon Gear. They have them. I've used them. They also have supershim kits for the carrier bearings which I absolutely love. The solid shims add a little to durability as well, as sudden high torque loads can compress the crush sleeve slightly and reduce preload. With shim kits, I like to set up at the tight end of the spec.
Here's a tip on crush sleeves, though. Measure the thickness of the old crush sleeve. Take the new one to a press and crush it in the press to near the distance of the old sleeve but not quite. The initial crush is the hardest part. It goes easier after if you install it partly crushed. There is a degree of experimentation with this as to how much you crush it, so have a spare one just in case. You can't uncrush 'em ( : < ).
Jim,
Thank you very much for excellent detailed input. I have some plain old 80w90 on the shelf and will use it for preload with the new pinion bearings and races.
I used Amsoil 75w110 the first time during final pinion bearing preload and crush sleeve setup. I noted that it was extremely slippery stuff. Not sure if that really threw anything off, but in retrospect, I strongly question whether I could have had 27 inch pounds both on break away AND rolling torque. That should have been a warning. I've forgotten too much.
I'd missed a bur under the large bearing race first time around that was caused by the punch and driving out old race. Coulda' swore I'd gotten them all. This time, I used close glasses, mirror, dremel, sandpaper, etc. Not making the same mistake twice. Probably gettin' too old to do this work if I missed SEEING a bur that big! ;-) Anyway, that bur preventing proper seating of the race may explain the non-concentric wear pattern in the race.
I'd checked race seating with a .0015" (one and a half) feeler gauge as per Ford but failed to find the gap that must have been there on one side.
Your input on solid sleeves appreciated, too. I will look into them more closely now. I had not heard of or read up on the one brand. I'm using special ordered Ford 1 piece side shims for the reasons you stated as well.
I was pre-crushing the Ford sleeves using the old pinion gear chucked in a monster vise - along with an old bearing and the pinion flange and a mockup nut. No press any more. As you mentioned, I over crushed the first one but have been sneaking up more carefully on later ones. I'm hitting them about .015 (fifteen) taller than the last crush sleeve I mic'd.
While a bit old and beat up, I can do the final crush on a standard Ford crush sleeve under the car but I won't try it on the new double thickness one again. That was ridiculous.
I will aim towards the high end of preload spec as you mentioned. I'm using the new style (2012 Shelby GT500) high torque pinion bearing on the back bearing. The rollers and race surface are at a shallower angle. Same stack thickness as stock nowadays though earlier Shelby's required a pinion race spacer.
Thank you very much once again,
Micke
Thank you very much for excellent detailed input. I have some plain old 80w90 on the shelf and will use it for preload with the new pinion bearings and races.
I used Amsoil 75w110 the first time during final pinion bearing preload and crush sleeve setup. I noted that it was extremely slippery stuff. Not sure if that really threw anything off, but in retrospect, I strongly question whether I could have had 27 inch pounds both on break away AND rolling torque. That should have been a warning. I've forgotten too much.
I'd missed a bur under the large bearing race first time around that was caused by the punch and driving out old race. Coulda' swore I'd gotten them all. This time, I used close glasses, mirror, dremel, sandpaper, etc. Not making the same mistake twice. Probably gettin' too old to do this work if I missed SEEING a bur that big! ;-) Anyway, that bur preventing proper seating of the race may explain the non-concentric wear pattern in the race.
I'd checked race seating with a .0015" (one and a half) feeler gauge as per Ford but failed to find the gap that must have been there on one side.
Your input on solid sleeves appreciated, too. I will look into them more closely now. I had not heard of or read up on the one brand. I'm using special ordered Ford 1 piece side shims for the reasons you stated as well.
I was pre-crushing the Ford sleeves using the old pinion gear chucked in a monster vise - along with an old bearing and the pinion flange and a mockup nut. No press any more. As you mentioned, I over crushed the first one but have been sneaking up more carefully on later ones. I'm hitting them about .015 (fifteen) taller than the last crush sleeve I mic'd.
While a bit old and beat up, I can do the final crush on a standard Ford crush sleeve under the car but I won't try it on the new double thickness one again. That was ridiculous.
I will aim towards the high end of preload spec as you mentioned. I'm using the new style (2012 Shelby GT500) high torque pinion bearing on the back bearing. The rollers and race surface are at a shallower angle. Same stack thickness as stock nowadays though earlier Shelby's required a pinion race spacer.
Thank you very much once again,
Micke
Randy's Ring and Pinion is the biggest retailer and on of the biggest aftermarket manufacturer of diff parts and I trust them implicitly. Spent a lot of time with the owner and his crew over the years and have seen all the blemishes. Happy to say they are few.
The Supershims are adjustable solid shims. They are made of two-piece thick shims that interlock and between which you assemble thin ships to reach whatever thickness you need. The two thick pieces then protect the thin ones and you are infinitely adjustable at that point and you don't have to by a boatload of shims. They are also not as fragine and many solid shims that are cast and very brittle. Works great
The Supershims are adjustable solid shims. They are made of two-piece thick shims that interlock and between which you assemble thin ships to reach whatever thickness you need. The two thick pieces then protect the thin ones and you are infinitely adjustable at that point and you don't have to by a boatload of shims. They are also not as fragine and many solid shims that are cast and very brittle. Works great
Hey, Jim.
Thanks again for input! I once again went through gear set up including some minor back and forth on pinion shim and side shims several times on latest disassembly/reassembly.
I ended up with a .0345" pinion shim, .276" custom lapped left side carrier shim and .269" right side shim.
From the marking patterns, I came to the conclusion that: Either the first 200 miles put more wear on the gears than I would have expected...
or
The housing is warped or poorly machined...
or
The gears drive and coast patterns are just a tad out of sync...
or
A combo of the above.
In any case, I settled on a perfect drive pattern while coast was a bit towards toe... with a nice classic bullet nose... but a tail I didn't exactly love. I went this route because it appeared that the minimal wear pattern was causing at least some of this. I hoped I was right.
At least drive and/or coast aren't running off heel any more and I ended with almost no offset between drive and coast.
Driving results:
Drive is absolutely silent. Decel at 2 speed ranges was initially somewhat noisy in one, slight in the other.
2nd heat cycle drive saw both ranges reduce noise by half. So I suspect new pattern shifted off first 200 mile wear pattern was the cause. E.g., pattern perimeter was back in some of the unworn black oxide coating.
I have a ton of time in this build, now. But whatever, it's a hobby. I've decided this particular set of FRPP gears either could never have been set up to be silent OR it might not be possible after the first 200 miles wear pattern.
I am encouraged that coast noise is decreasing rapidly instead of going the other (bad) direction.
Current gear oil is Amsoil 75w140. I did install new pinion bearings and races AGAIN during this round of setup tests and patterns. Hence the 3 heat cycles again.
FWIW, not how I would have wanted things to go but looks like I'm going to get an acceptable result.
Gotta put an end to this soon; getting another total hip replacement in about 10 days (right side this time) so I won't be doing any heavy wrenching for a long while. Sounds like a pain in the (bleep), no?
Micke
Thanks again for input! I once again went through gear set up including some minor back and forth on pinion shim and side shims several times on latest disassembly/reassembly.
I ended up with a .0345" pinion shim, .276" custom lapped left side carrier shim and .269" right side shim.
From the marking patterns, I came to the conclusion that: Either the first 200 miles put more wear on the gears than I would have expected...
or
The housing is warped or poorly machined...
or
The gears drive and coast patterns are just a tad out of sync...
or
A combo of the above.
In any case, I settled on a perfect drive pattern while coast was a bit towards toe... with a nice classic bullet nose... but a tail I didn't exactly love. I went this route because it appeared that the minimal wear pattern was causing at least some of this. I hoped I was right.
At least drive and/or coast aren't running off heel any more and I ended with almost no offset between drive and coast.
Driving results:
Drive is absolutely silent. Decel at 2 speed ranges was initially somewhat noisy in one, slight in the other.
2nd heat cycle drive saw both ranges reduce noise by half. So I suspect new pattern shifted off first 200 mile wear pattern was the cause. E.g., pattern perimeter was back in some of the unworn black oxide coating.
I have a ton of time in this build, now. But whatever, it's a hobby. I've decided this particular set of FRPP gears either could never have been set up to be silent OR it might not be possible after the first 200 miles wear pattern.
I am encouraged that coast noise is decreasing rapidly instead of going the other (bad) direction.
Current gear oil is Amsoil 75w140. I did install new pinion bearings and races AGAIN during this round of setup tests and patterns. Hence the 3 heat cycles again.
FWIW, not how I would have wanted things to go but looks like I'm going to get an acceptable result.
Gotta put an end to this soon; getting another total hip replacement in about 10 days (right side this time) so I won't be doing any heavy wrenching for a long while. Sounds like a pain in the (bleep), no?
Micke
Indymac,
I sincerely apologize for missing your question about when to change gear oil on a new Toyota 4Runner. Have probably been a bit too target fixated.. ;-)
I never worked Toyota's so I'm hoping Jim Allen will reply.
I've always personally believed that various factory recommendations for first change, if they don't subscribe to lifetime fill nonsense, are late. My personal reasoning is: Get the first excessive wear metals out sooner, not later.
In other words, NOT try to see how long an axle asy can survive with all the first break in metals in there. Get 'em out.
If I had a new Toyota, I would probably change the first gear oil out between 5k and 15k depending on how hard I was using the vehicle. Many will say that is excessively early and they could be right.
OTOH, your thought of changing at 2k would probably have most of the new build wear metals already in solution, so I don't see a downside other than maybe sacrificing a few gear oil bucks.
What I really don't know and maybe the Toyota guys can comment: Because you are draining with a drain plug versus pulling a cover, you won't be able to wipe out a lot of the ugly residue from the bottom of the gear housing.
Given that, do Toyota guys do a flush during diff fluid change? Some gear oil makers suggest a flush with a light oil like motor oil while up on jack stands under no load; short period of time. I do not advocate this unless Toyota enthusiasts suggest it. Just looking for ways to get as much initial wear metals out on first change as possible.
If a flush isn't doable or recommended, then this would definitely be one I'd want to drain right after some fully warmed up highway speed miles so everything is mixed up in solution as best as possible.
Micke
I sincerely apologize for missing your question about when to change gear oil on a new Toyota 4Runner. Have probably been a bit too target fixated.. ;-)
I never worked Toyota's so I'm hoping Jim Allen will reply.
I've always personally believed that various factory recommendations for first change, if they don't subscribe to lifetime fill nonsense, are late. My personal reasoning is: Get the first excessive wear metals out sooner, not later.
In other words, NOT try to see how long an axle asy can survive with all the first break in metals in there. Get 'em out.
If I had a new Toyota, I would probably change the first gear oil out between 5k and 15k depending on how hard I was using the vehicle. Many will say that is excessively early and they could be right.
OTOH, your thought of changing at 2k would probably have most of the new build wear metals already in solution, so I don't see a downside other than maybe sacrificing a few gear oil bucks.
What I really don't know and maybe the Toyota guys can comment: Because you are draining with a drain plug versus pulling a cover, you won't be able to wipe out a lot of the ugly residue from the bottom of the gear housing.
Given that, do Toyota guys do a flush during diff fluid change? Some gear oil makers suggest a flush with a light oil like motor oil while up on jack stands under no load; short period of time. I do not advocate this unless Toyota enthusiasts suggest it. Just looking for ways to get as much initial wear metals out on first change as possible.
If a flush isn't doable or recommended, then this would definitely be one I'd want to drain right after some fully warmed up highway speed miles so everything is mixed up in solution as best as possible.
Micke
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Speedway does not list this stuff in their printed catalog which I just recieved.
I'm guessing one must call them up and ask for it by name/number??
DailyDriver,
I found both in their online website... let me see if I can find a link.
By the way, after seeing how thick the 1606 is, I would strongly suggest going with the 110w 1605 or the 90w 1604. Subjectively speaking, the LE1606 goes thru the pump at about thrice as thick as Amsoil 75w140 at same temps.
The initial gear wear with the LE1606 was very impressive to me; gear teeth were polished mirror like - like new ball bearings. I questioned flow to pinion bearing possibly due to being very thick, but I doubt that was involved with the damaged races first time out. Not writin' a book, so I won't bore you with it.
Back in a sec...
Micke
Link for 1606 140w:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Lubrication-Engineers-Rearend-Lube-140W-1-Gallon,2161.html
Link for 1604 90w:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Lubrication-Engineers-Rearend-Lube-90W-1-Gallon,29645.html
Well, the links aren't working in bitog, so maybe copy/paste to your browser...
Huh, look at that... they have LE power steering fluid, Almagard greases and motor oils, too! Can't comment as I haven't used 'em; just sayin'. Search "Lubrication Engineers" in their website and you'll see a bunch of stuff come up.
5 gallon pails of the gear oils offered, too.
Speedway does not list this stuff in their printed catalog which I just recieved.
I'm guessing one must call them up and ask for it by name/number??
DailyDriver,
I found both in their online website... let me see if I can find a link.
By the way, after seeing how thick the 1606 is, I would strongly suggest going with the 110w 1605 or the 90w 1604. Subjectively speaking, the LE1606 goes thru the pump at about thrice as thick as Amsoil 75w140 at same temps.
The initial gear wear with the LE1606 was very impressive to me; gear teeth were polished mirror like - like new ball bearings. I questioned flow to pinion bearing possibly due to being very thick, but I doubt that was involved with the damaged races first time out. Not writin' a book, so I won't bore you with it.
Back in a sec...
Micke
Link for 1606 140w:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Lubrication-Engineers-Rearend-Lube-140W-1-Gallon,2161.html
Link for 1604 90w:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Lubrication-Engineers-Rearend-Lube-90W-1-Gallon,29645.html
Well, the links aren't working in bitog, so maybe copy/paste to your browser...
Huh, look at that... they have LE power steering fluid, Almagard greases and motor oils, too! Can't comment as I haven't used 'em; just sayin'. Search "Lubrication Engineers" in their website and you'll see a bunch of stuff come up.
5 gallon pails of the gear oils offered, too.
I'm obviously no tribologist... as I'm about to prove:
As an ex-wrench, my impression continues to be that the LE1606 140w is probably too viscous for the 8.8" Ford. Can't prove it; just an instinctive thing.
So say my coast minor whine still bugs me now that I KNOW the diff is no longer self destructing. If I want to continue trying the LE gear whine reduction regimen...
What say I buy a gallon of LE1604 from Speedway and mix with the 1606 I have on the shelf?? Yeah, I'm aware that really isn't 90w140..
And yeah, I've read. Self blending oils is generally frowned upon.
Was just a thought. If it comes to that, will probably just get some 1605 110w from Mag Hytec as suggested by Indymac.
I'm suspecting that might be the max for going heavier on gear oil when 75w140 synth is specced. Again, can't prove it.
As the man said: "Ya' makes yer bets and ya' takes yer chances."
If a car is still in warranty: As most say, stay with manufacturer's recommendations at least until warranty is up. Or just stay with it, period. Unless ya' have a whine problem...
A wine problem, however, may require a different solution. ;-)
M
As an ex-wrench, my impression continues to be that the LE1606 140w is probably too viscous for the 8.8" Ford. Can't prove it; just an instinctive thing.
So say my coast minor whine still bugs me now that I KNOW the diff is no longer self destructing. If I want to continue trying the LE gear whine reduction regimen...
What say I buy a gallon of LE1604 from Speedway and mix with the 1606 I have on the shelf?? Yeah, I'm aware that really isn't 90w140..
And yeah, I've read. Self blending oils is generally frowned upon.
Was just a thought. If it comes to that, will probably just get some 1605 110w from Mag Hytec as suggested by Indymac.
I'm suspecting that might be the max for going heavier on gear oil when 75w140 synth is specced. Again, can't prove it.
As the man said: "Ya' makes yer bets and ya' takes yer chances."
If a car is still in warranty: As most say, stay with manufacturer's recommendations at least until warranty is up. Or just stay with it, period. Unless ya' have a whine problem...
A wine problem, however, may require a different solution. ;-)
M
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Originally Posted By: 10bears
Hey, Jim.
Thanks again for input! I once again went through gear set up including some minor back and forth on pinion shim and side shims several times on latest disassembly/reassembly.
I ended up with a .0345" pinion shim, .276" custom lapped left side carrier shim and .269" right side shim.
From the marking patterns, I came to the conclusion that: Either the first 200 miles put more wear on the gears than I would have expected...
or
The housing is warped or poorly machined...
or
The gears drive and coast patterns are just a tad out of sync...
or
A combo of the above.
In any case, I settled on a perfect drive pattern while coast was a bit towards toe... with a nice classic bullet nose... but a tail I didn't exactly love. I went this route because it appeared that the minimal wear pattern was causing at least some of this. I hoped I was right.
At least drive and/or coast aren't running off heel any more and I ended with almost no offset between drive and coast.
Driving results:
Drive is absolutely silent. Decel at 2 speed ranges was initially somewhat noisy in one, slight in the other.
2nd heat cycle drive saw both ranges reduce noise by half. So I suspect new pattern shifted off first 200 mile wear pattern was the cause. E.g., pattern perimeter was back in some of the unworn black oxide coating.
I have a ton of time in this build, now. But whatever, it's a hobby. I've decided this particular set of FRPP gears either could never have been set up to be silent OR it might not be possible after the first 200 miles wear pattern.
I am encouraged that coast noise is decreasing rapidly instead of going the other (bad) direction.
Current gear oil is Amsoil 75w140. I did install new pinion bearings and races AGAIN during this round of setup tests and patterns. Hence the 3 heat cycles again.
FWIW, not how I would have wanted things to go but looks like I'm going to get an acceptable result.
Gotta put an end to this soon; getting another total hip replacement in about 10 days (right side this time) so I won't be doing any heavy wrenching for a long while. Sounds like a pain in the (bleep), no?
Micke
Heel and toe position is very difficult to control within the narrow range of the backlash adjustment, plus it's based on the machining of the housing as you surmised. If you get a good face/flank pattern, the heel/toe doesn't make too much difference in the setup result. That's what Randy Lyman told me years ago and has held true in the decade since.
In my experience, you are actually lucky that the R&P didn't set after 200 miles. When I worked for Land Rover in the '80s & '90s, they had a big issue one year with noisy diffs on new vehicles. Whoever was setting up diffs at the factory had some form of "cranial rectitis" because many were wildly out of set. Maybe it was the beer machine in the cafeteria (and yes they had one... I saw it). For a while, they had us pull the diffs apart and set them up properly but we found that if the vehicle was delivered and had more than about a hundred miles, they would stay noisy no matter what. If we did it during the PDI period before many miles were put on, we had almost 100 percent success. Problem was, it took an act of God to get them to allow us to do it before the vehicle was delivered and before there was a customer complaint. In the end, they had us replace the pumpkins for warranty. This was my only real experience with this sort of thing, so it may not hold universally true (though people generally say a gear pattern cannot be 100 fixed after it sets) but these Rover diffs were RADICALLY off the correct setup, so that may be why. Off a little might not mean as much. Anyway, glad you got it set up and running quiet. Try not to blow it up on the burnouts, willya? ( : < )
Hey, Jim.
Thanks again for input! I once again went through gear set up including some minor back and forth on pinion shim and side shims several times on latest disassembly/reassembly.
I ended up with a .0345" pinion shim, .276" custom lapped left side carrier shim and .269" right side shim.
From the marking patterns, I came to the conclusion that: Either the first 200 miles put more wear on the gears than I would have expected...
or
The housing is warped or poorly machined...
or
The gears drive and coast patterns are just a tad out of sync...
or
A combo of the above.
In any case, I settled on a perfect drive pattern while coast was a bit towards toe... with a nice classic bullet nose... but a tail I didn't exactly love. I went this route because it appeared that the minimal wear pattern was causing at least some of this. I hoped I was right.
At least drive and/or coast aren't running off heel any more and I ended with almost no offset between drive and coast.
Driving results:
Drive is absolutely silent. Decel at 2 speed ranges was initially somewhat noisy in one, slight in the other.
2nd heat cycle drive saw both ranges reduce noise by half. So I suspect new pattern shifted off first 200 mile wear pattern was the cause. E.g., pattern perimeter was back in some of the unworn black oxide coating.
I have a ton of time in this build, now. But whatever, it's a hobby. I've decided this particular set of FRPP gears either could never have been set up to be silent OR it might not be possible after the first 200 miles wear pattern.
I am encouraged that coast noise is decreasing rapidly instead of going the other (bad) direction.
Current gear oil is Amsoil 75w140. I did install new pinion bearings and races AGAIN during this round of setup tests and patterns. Hence the 3 heat cycles again.
FWIW, not how I would have wanted things to go but looks like I'm going to get an acceptable result.
Gotta put an end to this soon; getting another total hip replacement in about 10 days (right side this time) so I won't be doing any heavy wrenching for a long while. Sounds like a pain in the (bleep), no?
Micke
Heel and toe position is very difficult to control within the narrow range of the backlash adjustment, plus it's based on the machining of the housing as you surmised. If you get a good face/flank pattern, the heel/toe doesn't make too much difference in the setup result. That's what Randy Lyman told me years ago and has held true in the decade since.
In my experience, you are actually lucky that the R&P didn't set after 200 miles. When I worked for Land Rover in the '80s & '90s, they had a big issue one year with noisy diffs on new vehicles. Whoever was setting up diffs at the factory had some form of "cranial rectitis" because many were wildly out of set. Maybe it was the beer machine in the cafeteria (and yes they had one... I saw it). For a while, they had us pull the diffs apart and set them up properly but we found that if the vehicle was delivered and had more than about a hundred miles, they would stay noisy no matter what. If we did it during the PDI period before many miles were put on, we had almost 100 percent success. Problem was, it took an act of God to get them to allow us to do it before the vehicle was delivered and before there was a customer complaint. In the end, they had us replace the pumpkins for warranty. This was my only real experience with this sort of thing, so it may not hold universally true (though people generally say a gear pattern cannot be 100 fixed after it sets) but these Rover diffs were RADICALLY off the correct setup, so that may be why. Off a little might not mean as much. Anyway, glad you got it set up and running quiet. Try not to blow it up on the burnouts, willya? ( : < )
Jim,
You hit the nail on the head.
After that first 50% reduction in noise during "re-break-in", there hasn't been any more reduction.
In fact, whenever the Amsoil gets hot each cycle, things get noticeably louder.
Due to the fact that this is obviously a compromised build and due to the original title of this thread, I'm going to try RL Heavy Shockproof now. Not expecting miracles or anything. Mostly doing this to give some impressions of changes if any.
I'm also replacing the LCA's with rubber bushed instead of poly bushed. All this gear noise first became noticeable when I first put those accursed poly bushed LCA's on.
That's about all the time I'll have for it prior to the total hip replacement surgery next week.
Will hopefully follow your advice to not grenade the axle during burnouts!
Micke
You hit the nail on the head.
After that first 50% reduction in noise during "re-break-in", there hasn't been any more reduction.
In fact, whenever the Amsoil gets hot each cycle, things get noticeably louder.
Due to the fact that this is obviously a compromised build and due to the original title of this thread, I'm going to try RL Heavy Shockproof now. Not expecting miracles or anything. Mostly doing this to give some impressions of changes if any.
I'm also replacing the LCA's with rubber bushed instead of poly bushed. All this gear noise first became noticeable when I first put those accursed poly bushed LCA's on.
That's about all the time I'll have for it prior to the total hip replacement surgery next week.
Will hopefully follow your advice to not grenade the axle during burnouts!
Micke
Good luck with the new hip job Micke. I have not had to go through that myself, but can't imagine it being much fun.
Hopefully, the Amsoil 75W-140 will work out for you. If the whine keeps getting louder when the oil is hot, then it is shearing out of grade and needs changed. In an S2000, it sheared to 17.9cSt at 100C in only 5K miles. But the S2000 diff only holds 0.82 qts of oil! You shouldn't have a shearing problem with the RL HD Shockproof. But it is thick like LE Duolec and looks like Pepto-Bismol. You won't have any fun cleaning that up if you decide to switch to somethimg else. I have seen a UOA of that gear oil in an S2000 and it protected very well. The only thing odd was a relatively high aluminum reading...could have been an additive.
I have tried the rear diff flush procedure on a friends 2000 Suzuki Grand Vitara. It is easy, but time consuming with drain and fill plug diffs. But I wouldn't even consider it for a diff with a face plate. The problem I have is there doesn't seem to be any turbine/compressor or non-detergent engine oil in SAE 10 or 20 grade available locally. SAE 30 is the thinnest I can find. It's probably the same viscosity as the 2012 4Runner factory fill 75W-85. I'll probably wait until 5K to switch over to 1605.
FYI, the 5 gal pail of LE Duolec is $196.70 shipped from LE. I only have 6 qts of 1605 left, so the pail is probably how I'll order it from now on. I use it in my S2000, Tundra, daughter's Avalanche, and soon a 4Runner.
Good luck next week and get well soon.
Jack
Hopefully, the Amsoil 75W-140 will work out for you. If the whine keeps getting louder when the oil is hot, then it is shearing out of grade and needs changed. In an S2000, it sheared to 17.9cSt at 100C in only 5K miles. But the S2000 diff only holds 0.82 qts of oil! You shouldn't have a shearing problem with the RL HD Shockproof. But it is thick like LE Duolec and looks like Pepto-Bismol. You won't have any fun cleaning that up if you decide to switch to somethimg else. I have seen a UOA of that gear oil in an S2000 and it protected very well. The only thing odd was a relatively high aluminum reading...could have been an additive.
I have tried the rear diff flush procedure on a friends 2000 Suzuki Grand Vitara. It is easy, but time consuming with drain and fill plug diffs. But I wouldn't even consider it for a diff with a face plate. The problem I have is there doesn't seem to be any turbine/compressor or non-detergent engine oil in SAE 10 or 20 grade available locally. SAE 30 is the thinnest I can find. It's probably the same viscosity as the 2012 4Runner factory fill 75W-85. I'll probably wait until 5K to switch over to 1605.
FYI, the 5 gal pail of LE Duolec is $196.70 shipped from LE. I only have 6 qts of 1605 left, so the pail is probably how I'll order it from now on. I use it in my S2000, Tundra, daughter's Avalanche, and soon a 4Runner.
Good luck next week and get well soon.
Jack
Jack,
Thank you for the well wishes regarding the hip and for detailed input about the gear oil. I've heard that the RL heavy shockproof is just as you said; a mess to clean up; opaque pink like Pepto.
I'll pop back with some updates before too long.
Micke
Thank you for the well wishes regarding the hip and for detailed input about the gear oil. I've heard that the RL heavy shockproof is just as you said; a mess to clean up; opaque pink like Pepto.
I'll pop back with some updates before too long.
Micke
Good one, Jim!
This is my second fake 'hinge', so I must really be hip!
Seriously, I'm the least 'hip' person I know. Total square.
I got disgusted with the axle build and blew the assembly apart again for one more try. If you don't mind, would like to pm you some pics for suggestions.
After last assembly and this one, I think part of the problem with the moving target is the new "high torque" pinion bearings lose preload QUICK. In just 300 miles, this latest set of new high torque pinion bearings went from 28 or 29 inch pounds of preload down to just 5.
TIA,
Micke
This is my second fake 'hinge', so I must really be hip!
Seriously, I'm the least 'hip' person I know. Total square.
I got disgusted with the axle build and blew the assembly apart again for one more try. If you don't mind, would like to pm you some pics for suggestions.
After last assembly and this one, I think part of the problem with the moving target is the new "high torque" pinion bearings lose preload QUICK. In just 300 miles, this latest set of new high torque pinion bearings went from 28 or 29 inch pounds of preload down to just 5.
TIA,
Micke
One thing Micke;
Double check with Dave (tech at Red Line) to be sure that the moly containing ShockProof can be used in a clutchpack type limited slip.
It was really meant for spooled drag race cars, hence the lack of concern about adding moly compounds to cut friction/heat.
When my L.A.T. 75W-140 starts to shear, the already loud, improperly setup, stinkin' 10 bolt starts screaming like a straight cut gears, Jerico/Weismann racing gearbox from a Trans Am series race car, and that's when I know it's time to change it out.
Yes, the 1606 DOES seem to be too thick, but, when the above happened last week on the highway, I dumped the old LAT 75W-140 out and put in a mix of 1 fresh quart of that, mixed with 1 quart of the Amsoil SG Racing 190 weight.
I figured the high V.I. LAT would 'thin out' the thick Amsoil somewhat (although it IS a FULL synthetic, so it should not be quite as viscous in use as the 1606 is), while hopefully being at least a little less shear prone in this Tejas-like heat we are seeing lately.
And yes, BEST OF LUCK with your hip operation!
Double check with Dave (tech at Red Line) to be sure that the moly containing ShockProof can be used in a clutchpack type limited slip.
It was really meant for spooled drag race cars, hence the lack of concern about adding moly compounds to cut friction/heat.
When my L.A.T. 75W-140 starts to shear, the already loud, improperly setup, stinkin' 10 bolt starts screaming like a straight cut gears, Jerico/Weismann racing gearbox from a Trans Am series race car, and that's when I know it's time to change it out.
Yes, the 1606 DOES seem to be too thick, but, when the above happened last week on the highway, I dumped the old LAT 75W-140 out and put in a mix of 1 fresh quart of that, mixed with 1 quart of the Amsoil SG Racing 190 weight.
I figured the high V.I. LAT would 'thin out' the thick Amsoil somewhat (although it IS a FULL synthetic, so it should not be quite as viscous in use as the 1606 is), while hopefully being at least a little less shear prone in this Tejas-like heat we are seeing lately.
And yes, BEST OF LUCK with your hip operation!
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