Using MMO and MoS2 at the same time?

[KCJeep]

I've been trying to clean up my Jeep engine due to neglect by PO for quite a while using short OCI's and high detergent oils. Gains have been minimal if any at all, I'm frustrated with the apparnet lack of results. I had used MMO in the past and it seemed I was getting better cleaning then, so I plan to go back to it. Since that time though I've tried MoS2 and like it in my Jeep as well.

I'm wondering if using both of those at once would be counterproductive? Anybody used both or have any thoughts on the idea of doing so?

Thanks!

 

[SrDriver]

Only experience over the years I have had is by using 20% MMO when doing oil changes along with 3 to 4 oz per 10 gallons of gasoline.

When living in Wisconsin many years ago always used MMO in the oil at every oil change during the long Winter months.

Too changing out the PVC valve would be a +.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
I've been trying to clean up my Jeep engine due to neglect by PO for quite a while using short OCI's and high detergent oils. Gains have been minimal if any at all, I'm frustrated with the apparnet lack of results.


How do you know it isn't clean already due to use of high detergent oils?

MoS2 is supposed to be a friction reducer, MMO is supposed to be a cleaner.

I would not use both at the same time. In fact, I would not use either of them.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: SrDriver
Only experience over the years I have had is by using 20% MMO when doing oil changes along with 3 to 4 oz per 10 gallons of gasoline.

When living in Wisconsin many years ago always used MMO in the oil at every oil change during the long Winter months.

Too changing out the PVC valve would be a +.



Good suggestion, but the old 4.0 doesn't actually have a PCV valve, I forget what they call what it does have, but it was recently checked. Thanks!

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
I've been trying to clean up my Jeep engine due to neglect by PO for quite a while using short OCI's and high detergent oils. Gains have been minimal if any at all, I'm frustrated with the apparnet lack of results.


How do you know it isn't clean already due to use of high detergent oils?

MoS2 is supposed to be a friction reducer, MMO is supposed to be a cleaner.

I would not use both at the same time. In fact, I would not use either of them.


I am fortunate that I am able to get a pretty good view through the oil fill hole. The very top of the engine is fairly clean, not as clean as I'd like but nothing concerning, but the valve cover etc is covered in black. I can stick a finger in and get sludge. Of course that makes me wonder where else it is and is completely unacceptable for a BITOG'er! Looks like long OCI's/neglect on dino to me.

I have seen no improvement on frequent OCI's with high detergent oils, MMO seemed to make a little progress before but I quit using it after a bad experience when I tried to go 25% (dumb idea). It worked well for me at about 15% and that's what I'll go back to, slow going but seems to be faster than oil alone.

I was curious if anyone had used it with MoS2 but I think now I'll just go with the MMO, if I add any MoS2 at all it will be later after the MMO has partly burned off.

 

[BearZDefect]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
In fact, I would not use either of them.

I find MolaKule's posts useful and informed, so I can't help but bite on this one: Why?

I haven't used them either, except for MMO in the gasoline for a while a couple of years ago. I still use MMO in gasoline occasionally when I expect my 15+ year old vehicle to see infrequent use for a stretch of weeks.

 

[Quest]

I for one, highly respect Mola's comments and wealth of technical knowledge and views in terms of chemistry and lubricants on BITOG, and I'm here to learn.

Afterall: there aren't that many tribologist out there who are willing to share their knowledge and information w/o backings and such. For most of them tends to either keep the vital information to themselves, or due to disclosure agreements, rather not to say.

RE: MoS2, I've used Molyslip in late 80s/early 90s in a couple of Isuzu engines w/o significant observable benefits, and I moved on since.

RE: MMO, I don't want to get into this subject due to my own subject experiences and such. I know there are still a lot of folks out there who swear by this product but IMHO I simply do not/have not benefit from it during my 2+decades of automotive-related services.

Lastly: ATF is not intended to be used as engine flush. You'll have better luck running a cup of kerosene mixed with regular engine oil (cheep one) for 10mins to free up varnished lifter instead.

Q.

 

[mechtech2]

Not so much nowadays, but how many engines had sticky lifters/ticking helped with MMo in the crankcase as a cleaner/solvent?
Loads.
As to Mos2 in the oil, it can't be that bad if so many mfrs use a form of it in their oils.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Not so much nowadays, but how many engines had sticky lifters/ticking helped with MMo in the crankcase as a cleaner/solvent?
Loads.
As to Mos2 in the oil, it can't be that bad if so many mfrs use a form of it in their oils.


Exactly.

 

[edhackett]

Please list the oil manufacturers that use MoS2 in their oils.

Ed

 

[ltslimjim]

^Point taken.

However, I think Lubro Moly's MoS2 is of good quality. We haven't seen evidence to the contrary at least and some users of that particular offering containing "MoS2" on here generally report good findings.

However, of course neither are needs and I wouldn't dump powdered MoS2 into some oil and expect it to properly work. The LM product definitely is of high quality and does a 'decent' job for the price point; which is relatively cheap anyway, JMO...

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Please list the oil manufacturers that use MoS2 in their oils.

Ed


He said "a form of" which I took to mean he was referring to moly in general. But here:



I have experienced positive results with both the additives I mentioned but I think I am not going to use them in conjunction, I am concerned they will compete with each other and essentially make both of them less effective.

 

[edhackett]

Some form of... Our bodies are composed of 23% carbon and 2.6% nitrogen. The air we breath is 78% nitrogen. Take a single carbon atom and combine it with a single nitrogen atom and you get CN-, cyanide. Chemistry matters.

The formation of the anti-wear layer by ZDDP and the soluble Mo additives is a very complex process affected by heat and pressure and involves the P, Z,(Mo), and Fe forming P based glasses that contain various amounts of Zn and Fe in multiple layers. Does MOS2 interfere with this? I can see how it could. Using MoS2 in motor oil might be the only EP/boundry protection you have. Nobody seems to know. They're just getting a handle on how ZDDP works.

There are studies that show that solids in the oil such as teflon and MoS2 contribute to ring sticking. As the oil oxidizes and thickens to varnish the solids compound the problem. There's a reason 0.6% insolubles are the condemnation point for motor oils.

Put me down as believing that solids, even if they are an excellent lubricant in themselves, have no place in motor oil.

Ed

 

[ltslimjim]

^At what micron level is a solid no longer 'considered' technically that? How are metallic additives used? Heated and made soluble, very small microns???

 

[edhackett]

I don't think there is a point where a solid is not considered a solid until you reach the individual atom/molecule. If a solid substance is not soluble in the solvent, it remains a solid regardless of it's size. Once the size is small enough, Brownian motion will keep the solid suspended and evenly mixed. This is called a suspension. A soluble compound dissociates completely to the individual molecule forming a true mixture.

The soluble Zn and Mo additives used in motor oil are just that, soluble. They are organic molecules that contain the metallic element, usually a single atom. ZDDP and molybdenum dithiocarbamate are examples.
Structure of ZZDP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate

These exist in the motor oil as individual molecules. They dissolve in the base oil just as a spoonful of sugar dissolves in a cup of coffee. The spoonful of solid sucrose you stirred in ends up as individual molecules of sucrose mixed throughout your coffee.

The reactions of these oil additives with the wear surface take place at the atomic level. Heat an pressure cause he ZDDP to break apart into various P containing molecules which then react at the wear surface to form hard Phosphate containing glass-like layers containing various amounts of Zn, S, and Fe from the initial wear. These coatings are very hard and wear resistant.

MoTDC does react at the wear surface to form MoS2. The difference here is that The MoTDC works in concert with ZDDP as the anti-wear layer formation is taking place at the atomic level. As I said, in my previous post, the chemistry matters. The reactions are very specific, and just throwing something that contains the same elements or the desirable end products into the mix are unlikely to give you the desired results. A tablespoon of TSP and squirt of Zinc Oxide sun block aren't an effective way of raising the Zn and P wear protection of your oil.

Do the lubricating properties of the MoS2 prevent the heat needed for the native oil additives to work? Does it muck up the intended reactions? I don't know, and I haven't been able to find any publications on the subject. I choose to error on the side of caution.


Ed

 

[mechtech2]

Don't forget that Lubro Moly has a load of BORON in it, as well.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Don't forget that Lubro Moly has a load of BORON in it, as well.


Didn't know that, interesting.

 

[KCJeep]

Posted for posterity, I e-mailed the Germans and asked them this question. They stated MoS2 could be used in conjuction with MMO without any clashing.

I ended up not mixing them this time, used MoS2 alone, but will not be afraid to do so in the future.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Posted for posterity, I e-mailed the Germans and asked them this question. They stated MoS2 could be used in conjuction with MMO without any clashing.

I ended up not mixing them this time, used MoS2 alone, but will not be afraid to do so in the future.


I respect their honesty and IMO that speaks volumes for the company. The typical canned responses would have been something like no. Or why would you want to do something like that, after all our product is the very best and nothing else is needed. The fact that they said it was OK and would cause no problems makes me respect them even more. They make a fine product and I will continue to use it.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Posted for posterity, I e-mailed the Germans and asked them this question. They stated MoS2 could be used in conjuction with MMO without any clashing.

I ended up not mixing them this time, used MoS2 alone, but will not be afraid to do so in the future.


I respect their honesty and IMO that speaks volumes for the company. The typical canned responses would have been something like no. Or why would you want to do something like that, after all our product is the very best and nothing else is needed. The fact that they said it was OK and would cause no problems makes me respect them even more. They make a fine product and I will continue to use it.


I was impressed as well. It was obvious from the responses (there were several e-mails exchanged) that they were not initially sure what MMO was nor did they completely understand how I intended to use it at first (language barrier at work). Once that was straightened out it was clear to me they had reasearched MMO a bit before answering me. Great service, and I'm loving the MoS2.