Using Heavier Weight Oil

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Can somebody explain how it is possible for a banch of hamble 10W40's to show better wear results comparing to some top of the line 0W40's?
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000923#000001

According to elf only 20-30% of the wear occurs during the warm up period.( ELF FAQ)

"What are the advantages of a quality oil ?

A good quality oil provides motorists with a number of benefits :
easier cold start and reduced wear (20 to 30% of engine wear occurs between startup and the time the engine reaches optimal temperature),
longer engine life,
fuel savings as a result of reduced friction of moving parts and better engine performance."
 
thi is worth repeating and my apologies to those who must endure it again. 3 yrs ago, I purchased a used 97 astro van w/ 129xxx miles on the odo.. the previous owner was a mason of sorts(residual material observation) and used 20w50. this was confirmed by service receipts left in the vehicle.during the early life of this vehicle it consumed minute amounts of oil, using xx30w's. after a very short cycle of mobil 1 and their 10 dollar filter all excrement broke loose. oil consumption of 1/2- 1 1/2 quarts over the oci, usually between 2k and 8k miles. I have used st 30w,15w40,on occasion and benefited from increased trips to the gas pump or a roughly 10% reduction in gas mileage.this commercially used vehicle has over 220k miles w/ similar oil consumption using xx30w's strictly. 40 months and 9000 miles shy of ME putting 100,000 hard miles on this workhorse and I would NOT consider any 40 or 50w alternative again. ever.It warrants mentioning the failure of the #5 fuel injector at 116xxx(receipt analysis), earned me a new intake manifold gasket.no leaks so far.10 years ago 30w's were too thin,now 20w's are too thin. the paradigm shift is over! 20w,s are here again....
 
"Why am I not surprised you picked the Taylor paper with the instrumented diesel engine, instead of the one with the instrumented gasoline engine?

http://www.iantaylor.org.uk/papers/Additives2001.pdf

Could this be another example of the cult induced thick oil dogma selection process?"

???? Both articles had examples of diesel as well as gas engines, actual as well as simulated results, as one of the apparent goals of his work is to be able to accurately model what is going on. Did you even read the articles ? Both articles reinforce the original comment that I posted, which was taken from his article. You're arguing with the author's conclusions, based upon the new work done in the artcile as well as preceeding work done over the years.

It appears may have a hard time inferring a range of possibilities from a set of facts as you don't consistently demonstrate basic comprehension.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
"Why am I not surprised you picked the Taylor paper with the instrumented diesel engine, instead of the one with the instrumented gasoline engine?

http://www.iantaylor.org.uk/papers/Additives2001.pdf

Could this be another example of the cult induced thick oil dogma selection process?"

???? Both articles had examples of diesel as well as gas engines, actual as well as simulated results, as one of the apparent goals of his work is to be able to accurately model what is going on. Did you even read the articles ? Both articles reinforce the original comment that I posted, which was taken from his article. You're arguing with the author's conclusions, based upon the new work done in the artcile as well as preceeding work done over the years.

It appears may have a hard time inferring a range of possibilities from a set of facts as you don't consistently demonstrate basic comprehension.


You my friend, spend to much time inferencing incorrectly. You're the poster child for invalid arguments and logical fallacies.

Are you still inferencing what went on in the "closed door meeting" with Ford?
 
Actually I believe in the sticky finger test. My Maybach came with just a cover over the dip stick tube. I got a real dipstick to put in there. I like to pull it out and see and feel the oil in the sump. It dose mean something to me.

If a 60 wt. oil left a real thick film on the cams then maybe there would be no start up wear. This has been tested in the original paper I presented. The thicker oil did not result in less start up wear.
 
Agreed AEHass. I would think that the lubricants wetting property in concert with it's corrosion inhibitors as related to the metal in question would be far more relevant than simply a change in lubricants viscosity.

But this is really a moot point. The used oil analysis show us that any difference is negligible to the point of being immeasurable. Another grab at straws by the viscosity simpletons.
 
Well, if it weren't for us simpletons, who would you berate all day long?
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In real-world terms, however, what's the difference to a new car on a warranty? You have to run what the guy that built it says.

Besides, as I recently discovered, the lubricated internals of standard passenger cars (which is 95% of us, I'd wager) aren't what fail in the automotive venue, it's the rest of the car that falls apart around the engine. Nonetheless, I wouldn't want a straight-weighted 30W sitting in my crankcase at 15 degree-weather in January, and I don't care how beneficial it is by the time the engine warms up.

In any case, most owners are straight-jacketed by the warranty against any number of beneficial items like bypass and coolant fitration, pan capacity upgrades, larger filters, and so on. Seems like the viscosity is the least of considerations, unless you're talking about such unobtainium technology as the good Doctor's Enzo.

I'm just a layman, but the minute details in all this really don't apply to everyday mechanicals,
do they?
 
quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
Well, if it weren't for us simpletons, who would you berate all day long?
tongue.gif


With your empirical testing digit, you're at least a talented, and quite possibly valuable, viscosity simpleton.
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"Some think that engine wear during the first 20 minutes after start up is due to oil falling off the engine parts when at rest. I have never seen this in any scientific studies or in any SAE papers. I do not think this is relevant at all."

'Good' multigrades seem to reduce wear, but in aviation the results sem mixed:


http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mcb/018/2000/00000052/00000006/art00004

Modern heavy duty diesel engine cold start wear study

Abstract: Increasingly stringent European market requirements for improved heavy duty diesel engine performance, such as fuel economy and durability, continue to highlight the need for higher performance engine lubricants. To meet this need, new additive technology is being used in combination with higher quality base-stocks and has resulted in a growing trend towards the use of oils of lower viscosities than those used in the past. Such a trend has led to some concern over the ability of low viscous oils to maintain adequate engine wear protection, not only during extended service operations but also under the more severe conditions of low temperature engine start-up. This paper describes the results of a recent study to evaluate the effect of base oil composition and viscosity grade on the low temperature performance of a modern Euro II diesel engine with respect to wear, using the technique of Thin Layer Activation. Engine test results showed that the use of full synthetic SAE 5W40 grade oils based on Polyalphaolefin provided enhanced low temperature cylinder liner wear protection.


http://www.eaa49.av.org/techart/str_oil.htm

Do straight-weight oils provide better engine protection?

Our own experience (based on incoming calls to our engine hotline) tends to confirm that lubrication-related problemsespecially involving the camshaftare generally much less among users of straight-weight oils than among users of multigrade oils. There is nothing scientific about our sampling method, admittedly. But we do routinely ask callers what kind of oil they are using, and how often they fly. The people with serious engine problems (scuffed cam lobes, spalled lifters, etc.) we've noticed, are virtually always using a multigrade oil and/ flying less than 100 hours per year. (The number of people calling our hot line who scuff a cam while using straight-weight oil is negligible.) There could be many reasond for the apparent better performance of single-weight oils. It may be for instance, that operators who use straight-weight oils are more careful about preheating in cold weather (or tend not to live in cold areas at all) and therefore have less exposure to cold-start damage. Or it may be that operators who fly very little are more likely than most to buy "fancy" oils, in hopes that this will better protect their engines against the inevitable consequences of inactivity. (We have noticed that the multigrades do seem to have achived a very high market share among inactive or barely-active owner-operators.)

On the other hand, it may well be that straight-weight oils provide better protection against wear than multigradesa hypothesis that many in the oil industry seem reluctant to consider, but that may have to be reconsidered in the light of a new study published by the prestigious Society of Automotive Engineers.

SAE Findings

Last March, a pair of Mercedes-Benz Engineers (Rudolf Thom and Karl Kollman)along with pair of Shell Oil engineers (Wolfgang Warnecke and Mike Frend)wrote an SAE technical paper (No. 951035) on "Extended Oil Drain Intervals: Conservation of Resources, or Reduction of Engine Life?" Among the many interesting results presented in the paper was a graph showing cylinder-wall wear-rate Measurements correlated with cylinder wall temperature. Cylinder wear rates(in micrograms per hour) were monitored as a function of cylinder-wall temperature in a test engine specifically fitted with radionuclide-impregnated cylinder liners. Three test were done so that three different kinds of oils could be used. In one test sequence, a straight 30 weight oil was used; in another, 10w30 multigrade; and in the third, straight 10 weight oil. (The test engine was a Mercedes-Benz OM 616 2.4-liter, 4cylinder diesel.) In each case, the engine was operated at fixed speed, torque and temperature conditions until constant wear rates were observed. Wear rates were then plotted against cylinder wall temperature.

The graph of cylinder-wall wear rate versus cylinder wall temperature tends to be bathtub-shaped, with wear increasing sharply at each temperature extreme (as you'd expect). But while two of the oils turned in very similar wear performance, one oil stood out as protecting the engine against wear at the extremes of temperature. That oil was plain SAE 30 (Straight-grade 30-weight). At either extreme of temperature, the maximum wear rate with 10w30 was more than double that of the straight SAE30 oil. (The worst performance was turned in by straight 10-weight.)

......Until now, we've always believed that to the extent multigrades might not be protecting camshafts as well as straight-weight oils, it might simply be because multigrades which are thinner at ambient temperatures than most straight-weight oils simply run off of the parts quicker in an inactive engine, leaving steel parts exposed to the elements. However, SAE 951035 suggests that even in an active, running engine, straight-weight oils protect against wear better than multigrades. (Remember, in the SAE study, actual wear rates were measured while the engine was running.)
 
quote:

With your empirical testing digit, you're at least a talented, and quite possibly valuable, viscosity simpleton.

I'll keep doing my best at being of service, as limited as my services may be.
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yannis quoted: "A good quality oil provides motorists with a number of benefits :
easier cold start and reduced wear (20 to 30% of engine wear occurs between startup and the time the engine reaches optimal temperature),
longer engine life,
fuel savings as a result of reduced friction of moving parts and better engine performance."

This is a quote that must be qualified. If you have an engine that is started once, then run until it breaks, a tiny % of the total wear occured at startup. If you have an engine that never runs more than 15 minutes before being shut down and cooled off, 100% of the wear occurs at startup (as long as you define startup as the first 15 minutes of operation).
 
The above statement isn't mine. You can read it in the homepage of ELF lubricants and i suppose they consider it as an avarage number.

web page
Under the headline:"What are the advantages of a quality oil ?"
 
yannis, I know that wasn't your statement, that's why I said, "yannis quoted"

And I was just trying to point out that the statement need qualifiers. It's certainly accurate for SOME engine in SOME application at SOME set of circumstances. But, blanket statements like that are incomplete at best, and can be downright misleading.

BTW, thanks for providing the link!
 
"I am not sure why aviation and heavy truck articles are quoted as they have little overlap with cars. Also, the Shell aviation study stated that the Shell aviation oil was semi-synthetic and that the authors knew of no automotive oils that were semi-synthetic. This shows the age of the work done. "

Some of the work that Taylor has been doing is based upon using data from different engine types to develop models for predicting friction and wear, anong other variables. He uses the same models, as the valve trains, pistons and liners, journals bearings, etc, have similar configurations and attributes. His simulations switch between diesel and gas engines, in passenger cars and heavy duty trucks, with no fanfare. He has provided articles for publication in physics journals, and has investigated racing engines, all using the same models that he has been developing over the years.

As far as aviation goes I'd cut the guys a bit of slack, as it was also simple observation that something was amiss regarding the disaster using full synthetic oils. The results in the SAE paper that they referenced has been confirmed by additional testing in articles that Taylor has published, and which I referenced earlier; in general thicker oils provide thicker oil fils, and result in less wear in piston assemblies. In part this is why where maximum engine life is desired thicker oils are still used.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
The results in the SAE paper that they referenced has been confirmed by additional testing in articles that Taylor has published, and which I referenced earlier; in general thicker oils provide thicker oil fils, and result in less wear in piston assemblies. In part this is why where maximum engine life is desired thicker oils are still used.

Apparently you don't understand the concept of "covariance".
 
Covariance?

Care to elaborate? I'm about to dump 4 Qt of 5W-20 into a new car. Goes against all my former 20W-50 old-guy instincts, but the warranty is the warranty. Besides, BITOG doods say it's ok. My new "higher authority" regarding this stuff. Not the warranty, the BITOG guys that is.

Comfort me. What is covariance?
 
Way back in 1976 I bought a new Datsun B210. I did literally all the maintenance on it short of pulling the motor. My one greatest pleasure was doing oil changes. I think the spec was for 10W40 but I poured in whatever was on sale or had a nice label. Even used ARCO Graphite while it was available. Anyway, enough waxing poetic,for most of it's tortured life I used Castrol 20W50. Never had an issue with cold starting so long as the battery had a good charge. Had well over 100,000 miles on it. Body rusted away before the motor gave up. Oh for the simpler times!
 
1sttruck, how can you say that what goes on in aviation engines has any relevance to what happens in cars? Those oils must work under an entirely different set of circumstances than car oils. Not to mention the engines are low rpm, constant load.

Ever taken apart a Continental?
 
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